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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?
    I don't think there are any advantages to tell people you are ENTJ at all, because of the overall negative depiction of ENTJ in most type descriptions. The same goes for ESTJ. In fact, I've seen in another forum where an ESTJ got blasted the moment he revealed his type.

    It's a case of extreme type prejudice. Just the moment the male ESTJ started to post there, the other posters didn't even hesitate to give him lessons on how not to control other people's lives. The logic goes like this: He is a ESTJ and therefore he is an asshole and an intolerant person. His job, his age, his social life, his relationships with his family members, and whatever he has done in real life are insignificant comparing with his personality type, because it reveals who he really is.

    It's beyond stupidity. Because ESTJ and ENTJ are superficially similar, I can only assume that ENTJ get the same treatment there and elsewhere.

    This MBTI theory seems to have convinced so many people, that I think people who come to know you as an ENTJ would inevitably build up some negative preconceived ideas about you. They see you as an ENTJ, a representative of the type, the power hungry leader, but not you as you, a unique person with his own distinctive and remarkable qualities. Anything you did will be judged by how closely you resemble the ENTJ mold and the ENTJ behavior patterns. Anything that doesn't fit are seen either as your unique qualities or your effort to cover up your ENTJness to get along. Those who are obsessed with MBTI tend to think in line of the latter a lot.

    It would take a lot of time to convince people of who you are, and not what you seem to be (ENTJ)... it's difficult to convince them because they think they got you figured out. So why let them know you are ENTJ at all in the first place?

    I'd rather let them know I am a die-hard Nirvana fan.

    About leadership, I agree with what BlueWing said in the first paragraph.
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
    - Ernest Hemingway

  2. #62
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    I've concluded I have problems with Te Dominants in general. EXTJs. Because their aux. are usually so secondary as to be untouchable, my initial response is to not peer too closely unless I need or care to. (I can tell the difference, after I conquer the fight/flight response.)

    As for me, I think this is because I am more comfortable in Ti. Thompson says that we will have the most trouble understanding our dominant function in the opposite attitude--for me, this is true.

    (And for all of those who have seen me Te-ing, shush. It's a learned behavior. )
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Dansker's Avatar
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    There are people that I will always like more than others, regardless of their type. There are also some types that I enjoy more than others, and some types that I don't find myself associating with much at all.

    On the whole, I enjoy ENTJs. I admire their ability to take charge, organise and articulate their thoughts in a clear and concise way. They tend to be good with people, have great vision and they seem to be good at following through on commitments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    There's domineering and leading. I don't want to be around domineering types either. People are always free to do what they want.
    I agree, Maverick, that people are always free to do what they want. In my day-to-day life, if an ESTJ (or any other type) wants to get bossy and domineering, I don't mind too much. It doesn't mean that I have go along with what they are proposing, do what they want or even listen to them.

  4. #64
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    I only know one ENTJ in real life, but I like him very well.

    In general he needs to be the leader--and his ENTP friend often complains about it--but in the 5 years that we've been friends I can't remember him ever trying to boss me, personally. We actually work really well together when we're developing ideas and theories and planning stuff. Maybe because our areas of skills and interest are so very different, we usually defer to one another depending on who knows more.

    He strikes me as sort of fragile, to be honest. Or maybe just really needy. I often feel like I have to be careful with him. He doesn't seem to be able to manage his emotional needs adequately, or even define them completely. He talks to me about a lot of stuff like that which he can't quite figure out himself. He says I help him understand himself and other people better.

    He's one of the best friends I've ever had. He's generous and hard working and loyal. He's done so much for me.

  5. #65
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I only know one ENTJ in real life, but I like him very well.

    In general he needs to be the leader--and his ENTP friend often complains about it--but in the 5 years that we've been friends I can't remember him ever trying to boss me, personally. We actually work really well together when we're developing ideas and theories and planning stuff. Maybe because our areas of skills and interest are so very different, we usually defer to one another depending on who knows more.

    He strikes me as sort of fragile, to be honest. Or maybe just really needy. I often feel like I have to be careful with him. He doesn't seem to be able to manage his emotional needs adequately, or even define them completely. He talks to me about a lot of stuff like that which he can't quite figure out himself. He says I help him understand himself and other people better.

    He's one of the best friends I've ever had. He's generous and hard working and loyal. He's done so much for me.
    That inferior F can really make you seem child-like at times, especially Fi. And this could be very embarrassing to a tough-minded, autonomy focused NT.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    I don't think there are any advantages to tell people you are ENTJ at all, because of the overall negative depiction of ENTJ in most type descriptions. The same goes for ESTJ. In fact, I've seen in another forum where an ESTJ got blasted the moment he revealed his type.

    It's a case of extreme type prejudice. Just the moment the male ESTJ started to post there, the other posters didn't even hesitate to give him lessons on how not to control other people's lives. The logic goes like this: He is a ESTJ and therefore he is an asshole and an intolerant person. His job, his age, his social life, his relationships with his family members, and whatever he has done in real life are insignificant comparing with his personality type, because it reveals who he really is.

    It's beyond stupidity. Because ESTJ and ENTJ are superficially similar, I can only assume that ENTJ get the same treatment there and elsewhere.

    This MBTI theory seems to have convinced so many people, that I think people who come to know you as an ENTJ would inevitably build up some negative preconceived ideas about you. They see you as an ENTJ, a representative of the type, the power hungry leader, but not you as you, a unique person with his own distinctive and remarkable qualities. Anything you did will be judged by how closely you resemble the ENTJ mold and the ENTJ behavior patterns. Anything that doesn't fit are seen either as your unique qualities or your effort to cover up your ENTJness to get along. Those who are obsessed with MBTI tend to think in line of the latter a lot.

    It would take a lot of time to convince people of who you are, and not what you seem to be (ENTJ)... it's difficult to convince them because they think they got you figured out. So why let them know you are ENTJ at all in the first place?

    I'd rather let them know I am a die-hard Nirvana fan.

    About leadership, I agree with what BlueWing said in the first paragraph.
    Yes, I think this is a problem with the MBTI. We'd all like to think that we're free from prejudice ... I think in practice we are influenced by stereotypes and that it will be even more so if we have had bad experiences with a type.

    I think people naturally want to protect themselves from what they think could harm them. "Type" can become like some sort of nationalistic pride. People who share our type are like "us" and those that have a different type are not. Yes, the problem with the MBTI is that it tends to stop us from seeing others as unique individuals. We start to see them as members of a group, their "type". Type becomes a clue on par with race, religion, gender, social class, etc.

    People carry their scars and their issues. Often this involves some authority figure that they're resented... It's only natural that xxTJ's are good scapegoats in the MBTI because they're over-represented in authority roles. People in such roles may even be perceived as TJ just because of the situation. The truth is, people are alot more alike that they'd like to think. Everybody would like to think they're "special". In fact, I find it ironic that in the link you provided, the ones being assholes and judgmental were the ones trying to impose their "values" on the ESTJ. They did exactly what they were condoning.

    I guess it's true that it's not even worth trying to reverse the stereotype. Any behavior counter to the stereotype will be interpreted as not the real "you" and something you've learnt to do with time. The real you will be your type.

    I think after some time of pondering about the practical use of the MBTI, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really useful outside personal development. I think it's only really useful for INxx's who have issues about being pressured by their environment to be more "normal", etc. They can benefit from teaching others about their type. However, I don't see it useful for an ENTJ to tell others what his/her type is. I can't see the MBTI being any good in an organizational setting... I can't see the use of it in teams. It's a good thing not too many people take it seriously then, or else we'd live in a society with far more prejudice than we already have. Add to that the total lack of support from the academic world, for lack of proper reliability and validity, and I realize it's really of no use at all. So, I'm done with investigating the MBTI.

  7. #67
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    When you ask people why ENTJs as a general type are disliked, of course you're going to get generalizations and broad stereotypes. Same as when people talk about INFPs etc. If we can't make qualified generalizations about a type then what's the point of MBTI?

  8. #68
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    When you ask people why ENTJs as a general type are disliked, of course you're going to get generalizations and broad stereotypes. Same as when people talk about INFPs etc. If we can't make qualified generalizations about a type then what's the point of MBTI?
    That's actually a question I struggle with, but to the point of questioning the usefulness of MBTI altogether.

    I've been on the other side of the coin when INFJs are assumed to be all types of things I've never been. The most passionate contributors have personal experience that validate their conclusions. If one is going to speak in generalities, it should remain in the scope of theory. The personal applications are far too flawed with many factors that have nothing to do with temperament, which get all mixed into the pot of stew.

    It's frustrating to be assumed to be things you are not. I would go so far as to say that I have felt more misunderstood in the context of MBTI than in most any other situation, and that says A LOT, coming from my experience. Rather than just learning about people, you can get cornered into constantly explaining 'why' you are not like the person's horrible friends and ex's that are supposed to share your type. (every type uses this same stereotyping as far as I've encountered) Before I learned how commonplace that thinking was, I got really hurt by it on the other forum and left it altogether over a year ago, until digest brought me back. Whenever people get caught into this vicious cycle, it is useful to remind them that it is good news that a huge portion of the population is not exactly like their worst personal nightmares. It's good news that ENTJs can be all kinds of wonderful things that our biggest disappointments were not.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I was born my type and didn't choose the fact that being independent and in charge of something would be one of my core needs.
    I'm curious, are you an only child or first born? Or is there at least five years difference between you and a sibling? Many of those birth orders stated are ENTJ.

    Just as much as you need emotional connection, I need to be in charge. But anyway your answer corresponds to what people do in relationships with me. They will constantly try do "deny" me the leadership position. There's an attitude that comes from resentment, which I can understand, but I find it a bit annoying that people take pleasure out of it. It's almost... perverse and evil. Because they are doing it intentionally and "playing games" whereas my style is as natural as breathing. Relationships with others might end up being a game of hide and seek. "Look, you can lead me!", "Now, you can't anymore!", "You're angry? Here, lead me again", "You're in a good mood? You can't lead me anymore".
    I'm an INTJ but when managing people, I tend to assume more of an ENTJ role. It's not my natural role and I'm often uncomfortable in it. My cousin, however, is a true and true ENTJ so I've had years of experience dealing with that personality type. The only thing that bothers me about her is that she is a politician and social climbs every opportunity she can to elevate her to her next step in the hierarchy game (socially and professionally). I find her to be a tad insecure, too, which often has me baffled since she is very accomplished. She also doesn't humble herself much.

    In the end, I've found that *not* leading and introverting ironically makse people follow me much more. In fact, when I don't want people to lead they all seem to come in masses... and I'm like "Nah, I just want to do my own thing" and they end up asking me "please! you're the only one that could do it!"
    Yes, it is rather paradoxical. It's like leaders everywhere. The people who don't lead always have something to say about the people who lead. Look at the history of any leader and you'll see that they are often torn about in many ways.
    I love this Teddy Roosevelt quote:
    It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.

    My advice (for what it's worth) would be to continue to lead (we need leaders in this world) but humble yourself often and be careful about how you come across non-verbally. Good luck!

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Yes, I think this is a problem with the MBTI. We'd all like to think that we're free from prejudice ... I think in practice we are influenced by stereotypes and that it will be even more so if we have had bad experiences with a type.

    I think people naturally want to protect themselves from what they think could harm them. "Type" can become like some sort of nationalistic pride. People who share our type are like "us" and those that have a different type are not. Yes, the problem with the MBTI is that it tends to stop us from seeing others as unique individuals. We start to see them as members of a group, their "type". Type becomes a clue on par with race, religion, gender, social class, etc.

    People carry their scars and their issues. Often this involves some authority figure that they're resented... It's only natural that xxTJ's are good scapegoats in the MBTI because they're over-represented in authority roles. People in such roles may even be perceived as TJ just because of the situation. The truth is, people are alot more alike that they'd like to think. Everybody would like to think they're "special". In fact, I find it ironic that in the link you provided, the ones being assholes and judgmental were the ones trying to impose their "values" on the ESTJ. They did exactly what they were condoning.

    I guess it's true that it's not even worth trying to reverse the stereotype. Any behavior counter to the stereotype will be interpreted as not the real "you" and something you've learnt to do with time. The real you will be your type.

    I think after some time of pondering about the practical use of the MBTI, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really useful outside personal development. I think it's only really useful for INxx's who have issues about being pressured by their environment to be more "normal", etc. They can benefit from teaching others about their type. However, I don't see it useful for an ENTJ to tell others what his/her type is. I can't see the MBTI being any good in an organizational setting... I can't see the use of it in teams. It's a good thing not too many people take it seriously then, or else we'd live in a society with far more prejudice than we already have. Add to that the total lack of support from the academic world, for lack of proper reliability and validity, and I realize it's really of no use at all. So, I'm done with investigating the MBTI.
    I think the type prejudice we talked about will never be gone, unless MBTI authors stop demonizing some types and canonizing some other types. It is from articles like these that people got their biased view of types.

    An example of blatant prejudice against ENTJ would be this. Here are some quotes from the article:


    "I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?"

    TRADEMARK: -- "I'm really sorry you have to die."

    "When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative. Alternatively (s)he may unleash an icy gaze that serves notice: the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."



    Surely not many people would think positively of ENTJ after reading this article. But unfortunately, it's very popular – it's on the 2nd spot if you search ENTJ in Google.

    I agree with you that type could become a clue on par with race, religion, gender, and social class. Actually, the type system is completely free of influence from these social constructs that define a society e.g. man is different from woman according to the tradition, but according to MBTI man is similar to woman if they share the same type. It's a new way to see people, without the prejudice and judgment that exist in the aforementioned social constructs. The system even provides explanations of each type's motivations, interests, self image, value systems, and their preferred social roles. It sounds good enough to give it a shot, if most people actually fit these discriminatory stereotypes that is.

    For the practical use of the theory I am thinking of using it to discover a person's potential abilities and interests but not to gauge his/her personal character. I think MBTI also has its use when we first get to know a person. But, of course, once we assigned a type to a person we limited what that person could be for us. That's the reason why I have dismissed the MBTI system of people categorization.

    Stereotypes are there for a reason - there're usually some truths in those stereotypes. But to use these stereotypes to judge our buddies, parents, lovers, and the people close to us is just ridiculous, because we have so many opportunities to know these people better to stop using stereotypes to describe them.

    And I won't even know about MBTI if not for an INFP ex asking me to take the Kiersey test. She actually paid for it so why not. But god knows she would raise hell after she knew I'm ESTJ. So there're some truths when you say INxx could be "benefited” from teaching others about their type. But I think it also brings out the worst in humans when they find out their ex is their complete opposite. It's really annoying I tell ya
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
    - Ernest Hemingway

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