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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think it's possible to be able to appreciate all types for what they are and consider them "equal" in the sense of value, without having to be friends with many people of each different type.

    IOW, I might be able to come to respect ESFJ types... but it doesn't mean I need to be around them all the time or enjoy all the time I spend with them. Nor does it even mean I *want* to spend a large amount of time with them.

    Which serves as a segue to it being the same thing with the ENTJs I've met here on the forums, for me. I find it interesting just to hear what it's like internally for them, and I can appreciate the strengths of the ENTJ type... but personally, the ones I've met have tended to be far too direct/forward and dominating for me to enjoy conversing with them too often. I usually end up feeling trampled, or not listened to, or ignored, or whatever. And I am sure many of them have opposite gripes with me -- thinking I hold back too much, or am not direct enough, or take too many personal feelings of others into account in my approach and thus watering down my comments, or whatnot.

    But it's really just the inevitable friction. We can really only hope to remain "open" to each other, but we can't expect to be close friends with every sort of person out there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hah hah... well, that's the price you pay for being a leader Leaders are normally lonely (at the top).

    There isn't much to say, other than you can hold yourself back or deal with the impact you'll have. Only you can define the line that you have. Obviously if you are outspoken, putting tons of effort in and naturally gifted you are going to run into detractors... but the hidden part is in how you express these things.

    The danger remains that you might be pushing into your peer's worlds more than you think. It's easy to say that they are jealous, but sometimes (and especially Te's!) are unaware of their impact on others. Perhaps in your calculations, you simply don't know how to deal with equals and thus treat them differently than your leaders and followers.

    In a way, isn't that what defines you? It needs to be above or below you... otherwise you don't know how to deal with it... Seems logical to me.
    Yes it is I guess there is a price to pay for success, and that means annoying all the people who worked there for longer than you and didn't manage to progress as fast.

    I've been outspoken and used to do most of the talking, making jokes and a fool of myself. This worked well for a while but after the successes it just seemed to aggravate things. There's a minority of people who get irritated at these jokes and me taking attention... This minority pulled other people and they're forming a clique. So they started to "forget" to take me out to lunch or say "hello" and "bye". Nothing mean. Just a polite way of telling me they don't like me. I don't have a problem with that. It's just that, well, there aren't that many people to talk to! Now I'm having to go out more to find others. Also, it makes them even more angry that I'm nonchalant about what's happening.

  3. #33
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Yes it is I guess there is a price to pay for success, and that means annoying all the people who worked there for longer than you and didn't manage to progress as fast.
    Actually, my point is that there may be more to it than just that

    I've been outspoken and used to do most of the talking, making jokes and a fool of myself. This worked well for a while but after the successes it just seemed to aggravate things. There's a minority of people who get irritated at these jokes and me taking attention... This minority pulled other people and they're forming a clique. So they started to "forget" to take me out to lunch or say "hello" and "bye". Nothing mean. Just a polite way of telling me they don't like me. I don't have a problem with that. It's just that, well, there aren't that many people to talk to! Now I'm having to go out more to find others.
    Hah, you know what I heard in this? Me, me, me! Give me what I need...

    Something to consider, anyway. *shrug*

  4. #34
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hah, you know what I heard in this? Me, me, me! Give me what I need...

    Something to consider, anyway. *shrug*
    I didn't read that at all. It sounded like an attempt to negotiate to me. It also sounded like frustration that people do not behave logically. He said he was content that people found a 'polite' way to express their choice to reject him socially, but his acceptance of that makes it worse, and that part is not logical (except that the people were probably hoping to gain some type of power over him in their oversights).

    It sounds like your peers 'really' want to dominate you, to the same extent they feel dominated by you.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    What is your goal with these people? Do you want a different result? Do you think you will be moving up into management, so it's worth the social cost?
    My goal is simply to have pleasurable social interactions. As an E, it's important for me to be around people somewhat. I don't even think they want to undermine me or whatever. I think they respect my capabilities and all... but I think they just don't like me and/or don't want to be around me, full stop.

    In social 'peer' groups there is a tremendous drive for everything to be even-steven. If you don't follow those unwritten social rules there will be tension. I spent most of my life playing along to avoid the tension, but it has made me weary of interacting with people at all. I've lived in a number of small towns where I have had to function as a peer to people with a significantly lower skill level than me as a performer. It is clear in the nuance of the interaction that even the slightest suggestion from me of possessing superior skill would be met with social rejection. I end up giving as many sincere compliments as I can, never saying anything about my skills, and doing my best. It not a recommended strategy though, because it erodes a sense of self respect.
    This is exactly what I've been living. I really can't stand it. If someone does something better than I do, I'll always be the first to congratulate them! I can only admire people who do things well. What you say is exactly it... before I fitted pretty well, then by doing things that others don't (starting friendly fights with superiors, giving my opinions readily, etc.) and getting good results I started to get shunned. I think it's really bad when people accuse you of being arrogant or condescending just because they know you do something better than them and you're showing it. In my mind, if you're more competent, you have the right to be admired and hold the favorable position! This is the best way for everyone to learn as quickly as possible. Artificially making people at the same level through social norms is detrimental to all parties.

    If the avoidance of tension is the goal, there are only two options I see: 1. artificially fit into your 'peer' group by pretending to be an equal. 2. Find a peer group that are actually your equals. Perhaps there is a 3rd option, but it is more complex. People will welcome a superior who makes them feel connected to their superiority. Some people can present themselves as "I'm marvelous, wonderful, and so are you for knowing me". People will buy into that, but there's no way I could pull it off.
    Good advice. I'm afraid 1 is too late. I've found 2 though, but they're pretty busy!

    edit: the last part of my post got cut

  6. #36
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    Are we absolutely sure that MBTI types are about how we are and not how we want to be?

  7. #37
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    So I gather your conclusions thus far are that ENTJs are disliked because people are jealous or insecure, and that you shouldn't discuss your MBTI type with people who don't know you well?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I didn't read that at all. It sounded like an attempt to negotiate to me. It also sounded like frustration that people do not behave logically. He said he was content that people found a 'polite' way to express their choice to reject him socially, but his acceptance of that makes it worse, and that part is not logical (except that the people were probably hoping to gain some type of power over him in their oversights).

    It sounds like your peers 'really' want to dominate you, to the same extent they feel dominated by you.
    Thanks, Toonia, you understood what I meant.

    Gosh, you know, you're right. But if only they knew I actually I don't want to dominate them at all, I just want to have fun... I don't want a competition and make them feel inferior or anything. In fact, I've started to hide my accomplishments and downplay what I do. But it seems that no matter what I try, they can't stop noticing and focusing on me. The other day, I tried introverting alot more to give them more space and they asked me "What's up? Is anything wrong? What's going on?". I don't know if they were genuinely being conisderate or rejoycing at the idea that I may be feeling bad. If it is the latter, then it's pretty creepy to arrive at the point where people would feel happy to see you suffer.

    What can I do? Just being around them makes them feel bad and "inferior" no matter how little I want to give them that impression. I tell you, it's an awful feeling to realize that you make people feel like shit just by being around them.

  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    So I gather your conclusions thus far are that ENTJs are disliked because people are jealous or insecure, and that you shouldn't discuss your MBTI type with people who don't know you well?
    In some ways humans are the most insecure little critters scurrying about on the planet. Personality types that don't specifically cater to insecurities will be disliked, I'm guessing. In a way I would agree with your assessment.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #40
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I didn't read that at all. It sounded like an attempt to negotiate to me. It also sounded like frustration that people do not behave logically. He said he was content that people found a 'polite' way to express their choice to reject him socially, but his acceptance of that makes it worse, and that part is not logical (except that the people were probably hoping to gain some type of power over him in their oversights).
    I don't feel that at all. There are only two causes;

    1) You are doing well and others hate you for it. Oh well, tough, that's pretty much beyond your control. You can try to mitigate the damage and what not, but it's a lost cause.

    2) You are not interacting with them at their level. That can be dealt with. Indications of this would be that you aren't treating them like people would involve them not wanting to spend time with you - if they actively disliked you, they'd be sabotaging you instead. (read: "Oh well, I'll find some others", "They are just jealous", "It isn't me", "It's just a clique")

    The 'Me' part referred to "It's not that I like them, I just like having people around". This indicates that he doesn't see them as people either - just his own personal entourage to feed what he needs; "Now I'm having to go out more to find others."

    To me, that embodies Te. The need to fill the world the way it should be (according to them.) And if it isn't? Well, I'll just fix it. My GF has a very similar view, except woe to they who step on her vision instead (INTJ) of a more generalised view. Funny enough, now I can really see the weak Fi that ENTJs are suppose to have... something I've never really been able to understand.

    It sounds like your peers 'really' want to dominate you, to the same extent they feel dominated by you.
    I haven't seen any passive aggressive acts on their behalf, except in another post by the OP (which was similar, but she was on his team then). I get the impression they just don't like him, whether that is because he is "boy wonder" or because he is not treating them like equals... maybe even something else.

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