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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Yes but when the ultimatum is something along the lines of "follow my lead or I won't be your friend," people tend to feel rather resistant, wether the ultimatum is spoken or unspoken, intentional or not.

    I can tell you right now, I don't react well to ultimatums.
    The worrying thing is that ENTJ's might be sending off this message unintentionally, by going towards people who follow, and going away from people who don't. I know I try hard to control this but honesty I just like people who follow much more. I'm the nicest guy with people who do, and that person becomes like family... and on the other hand I need to take distance from people who resist. Sounds awful but I'm telling it like it is.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    It is about both ENTJ's and myself, but your statement was absolute ("No one wants"). There's domineering and leading. I don't want to be around domineering types either. People are always free to do what they want.
    Yeesh, pick away. "No one wants" = nearly no one wants/healthy relationships don't want. There is little difference between domineering and leading in relationships that require equality (friendships and relationships)... but there is a balance to be reached too. ENTJs are prone to dictate and override. Fortunately I don't get much of that and I put my foot down when it does happen. Not everyone knows how to deal with that situation, however.

    If nothing else, take the meaning away: ENTJs have issues with leading in friendships and relationships and that is what defines their problems. More than that, being proud of being a leader is insidious, it gives you the inner belief (a divine belief) in your right to rule. It causes incredible difficulties. Most good leaders, ENTJs included, are humble but driven.

    If anything, calling oneself an ENTJ and a leader in the same sentance implies to me that one cannot stand on their own merit (to be clear, this is not personal, I have no idea if you do this, I'm not implying that you do, I don't think you do, it's not from my own past, nothing else is implied). You lead because you can motivate people, not dictate to them. You lead because you set an example, not just tell people. Good leaders are respected; good leaders are not ENTJ by virtue of being ENTJ... Being ENTJ means trying to lead, the need to marshall troops... the ability is entirely seperate. If you aren't well liked as an ENTJ, chances are one doesn't have the right skills to lead, hence domineering, controlling, authoritive, etc. In short, ENTJs that are bad leaders for any number of reasons are immediately hated. Who wants someone who needs to lead but isn't good at it?

  3. #23
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    ENTJ's rule and that's the bottom line. I think that when others pull someone down merely for their type it says more about the accusers own vunerabilities than it does about the type they are maligning.

    My father is an ENTJ and one thing that I've learned is that an ENTJ rarely manipulates people. They lead and that's a whole different ball game. Those who think your manipulating them are possibly only feeling manipulated because they don't understand what your trying to achieve (that's usually the bit an ENTJ leaves out of the discussion because it's already set in their minds). The thing my father pointed out as a very good ENTJ characteristic is the desire to come up with and execute plans which are the best for the highest number of people. They are synergistic planners and not blunt instruments of control.

    If they don't like you cause of your type... nuts to them.

    If you get judged by your type alone then they are fools and you'd be within your rights to treat them as such.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by logan235711 View Post
    hey! Maverick!!
    I don't hate ENTJs! but then again...I don't know any, so I can't hate any...but anyways! If you want, we can be friends I don't think I'll mind if you want to be in charge--but I plan on asking LLOOOTTTTSSSSSSSS of questions

    -logan
    This sounds too good to be true, what's the catch

  5. #25
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    The worrying thing is that ENTJ's might be sending off this message unintentionally, by going towards people who follow, and going away from people who don't. I know I try hard to control this but honesty I just like people who follow much more. I'm the nicest guy with people who do, and that person becomes like family... and on the other hand I need to take distance from people who resist. Sounds awful but I'm telling it like it is.
    Just for another perspective, I don't mind being around domineering or passive types. What bothers me the most are people who are so inconsistent that I have no clue what they want from me. It wouldn't bother me at all to have a domineering friend, but I would need others to balance it out. If one friend slaps me around, I just need to find me another who I can slap around. It's the circle of life.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If anything, calling oneself an ENTJ and a leader in the same sentance implies to me that one cannot stand on their own merit (to be clear, this is not personal, I have no idea if you do this, I'm not implying that you do, I don't think you do, it's not from my own past, nothing else is implied). You lead because you can motivate people, not dictate to them. You lead because you set an example, not just tell people. Good leaders are respected; good leaders are not ENTJ by virtue of being ENTJ... Being ENTJ means trying to lead, the need to marshall troops... the ability is entirely seperate. If you aren't well liked as an ENTJ, chances are one doesn't have the right skills to lead, hence domineering, controlling, authoritive, etc. In short, ENTJs that are bad leaders for any number of reasons are immediately hated. Who wants someone who needs to lead but isn't good at it?
    Well, I can only speak for myself to answer what you say.

    People either "above" or "below" me tend to appreciate me. People that I lead were pretty thankful and we got good results. The problem is with people that are supposed to be equal to me and that are not considered as competent as me by superiors. These equals see me progressing very fast and getting good results but feel a growing feeling of resentment over my progress. This is exacerbated by my implicit and automatic attitude of trying to lead. These people then feel talked down to. Then, they see me snatch leadership positions, give strong opinions regularly at meetings, argue with superiors when they are afraid to, ... and I start to take up to much space which makes them dislike me alot. Ironically, though, if I don't try to lead them they expect me to do so and will ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    When these MBTI stereotypes get really negative, it just reveals people's deep down fears about others in general. It's never fun to have someone disappoint or betray you, so people can use MBTI as a way to bypass ever being tricked into trusting the wrong person. Stereotypes drive me absolutely crazy. They are irrational and nasty. They combine all the worst effects of refusal to think or be considerate of feelings. Pure, unadulterated pooeyness.

    I have nothing against ENTJs. I agree with Booyalab about preferring competency over popularity in an employer. To me ENTJs are the NTs I'm least familiar with, so I am curious about them. IMO ENTJs are a rather important type because they have the visionary, analytical, structured approach that is outgoing. It sounds like a very effective personality. Even if they are aggressive, it sounds like they could generally be reasoned with, a very important trait.
    I agree that these stereotypes are really annoying. They drive me crazy too. The thing is, when dealing with a so called "domineering" type, people have much more reasons to be wary and not take any risks. However, it really doesn't make it too interesting for me to talk about the MBTI IRL openly because of these stereotypes.

    ENTJ's can certainly be reasoned with. There's just an awful lot of energy to get things going, lots of ideas, lots of plans and a drive for results... but they can be stopped midway if you have good arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Just for another perspective, I don't mind being around domineering or passive types. What bothers me the most are people who are so inconsistent that I have no clue what they want from me. It wouldn't bother me at all to have a domineering friend, but I would need others to balance it out. If one friend slaps me around, I just need to find me another who I can slap around. It's the circle of life.
    Yes I can understand that. You may be unphased by ENTJ's because they do tend to have their NT alone/downtime periods that is necessary for them to accumulate information, think, strategize and make plans. Without these, they lose their depth and NTness. 75% of the time when they're with people they will be in "hyper" mode where all that counts is action and making decisions. This can be a setback for people and confuse them alot. On one hand, they can have the image of a very aggressive and driven person. On the other, of a calm, reserved and thoughtful one.
    Last edited by Maverick; 05-31-2007 at 03:13 PM. Reason: joining of posts

  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    People either "above" or "below" me tend to appreciate me. People that I lead were pretty thankful and we got good results. The problem is with people that are supposed to be equal to me and that are not considered as competent as me by superiors. These equals see me progressing very fast and getting good results but feel a growing feeling of resentment over my progress. This is exacerbated by my implicit and automatic attitude of trying to lead. These people then feel talked down to. Then, they see me snatch leadership positions, give strong opinions regularly at meetings, argue with superiors when they are afraid to, ... and I start to take up to much space which makes them dislike me alot. Ironically, though, if I don't try to lead them they expect me to do so and will ask me.
    Hmm, what part of this is a type problem? No one likes an over-achiever, especially when in competition with one. And why worry about it so much if all you are doing is moving ahead? At some point there will be some negative effects, but lets face it, if you are being true to yourself and doing what you like, who cares?

    Is this more about stereotypes in MBTI than anything ENTJ? Because as far as that goes, yes, MBTI typing is extremely harmful.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ENTJ's rule and that's the bottom line. I think that when others pull someone down merely for their type it says more about the accusers own vunerabilities than it does about the type they are maligning.

    My father is an ENTJ and one thing that I've learned is that an ENTJ rarely manipulates people. They lead and that's a whole different ball game. Those who think your manipulating them are possibly only feeling manipulated because they don't understand what your trying to achieve (that's usually the bit an ENTJ leaves out of the discussion because it's already set in their minds). The thing my father pointed out as a very good ENTJ characteristic is the desire to come up with and execute plans which are the best for the highest number of people. They are synergistic planners and not blunt instruments of control.

    If they don't like you cause of your type... nuts to them.

    If you get judged by your type alone then they are fools and you'd be within your rights to treat them as such.
    That's an excellent point. I never considered myself manipulative of people. I always considered I have a direct and open approach. However, this didn't stop peope from feeling they were manipulated and calling me on it.

    Well, I usually have that attitude of "to hell with it! I don't care what anyone thinks". Then, from time to time, somebody will get emotionally hurt and I'll feel sufficiently responsible to feel bad about it. Then I might go through a questionning phase and think about how I should improve how I deal with people... I'll think of ways of behaving that will make people more comfortable, ways to connect with others, etc. At one point, I'll think "Geez! To hell with this shit! This is exhausting, I just want to be my good old rude self!".

    ENTJ's are very critical of themselves and are their own worst critics. I'm constantly trying to better myself, be a better person, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, what part of this is a type problem? No one likes an over-achiever, especially when in competition with one. And why worry about it so much if all you are doing is moving ahead? At some point there will be some negative effects, but lets face it, if you are being true to yourself and doing what you like, who cares?

    Is this more about stereotypes in MBTI than anything ENTJ? Because as far as that goes, yes, MBTI typing is extremely harmful.
    I've seen that many times that no one likes an over-achiever, which is something that I still have difficulty to accept because I will respect anyone that does good at something. To be honest, I do value being with people and all... being left alone is more than my E can deal with and working in a positive atmosphere is always more fun and rewarding. As someone who was used to constantly interacting with people it's pretty dissappointing when people you got along well start to resent you for doing "too good".

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I've seen that many times that no one likes an over-achiever, which is something that I still have difficulty to accept because I will respect anyone that does good at something. To be honest, I do value being with people and all... being left alone is more than my E can deal with and working in a positive atmosphere is always more fun and rewarding. As someone who was used to constantly interacting with people it's pretty dissappointing when people you got along well start to resent you for doing "too good".
    Hah hah... well, that's the price you pay for being a leader Leaders are normally lonely (at the top).

    There isn't much to say, other than you can hold yourself back or deal with the impact you'll have. Only you can define the line that you have. Obviously if you are outspoken, putting tons of effort in and naturally gifted you are going to run into detractors... but the hidden part is in how you express these things.

    The danger remains that you might be pushing into your peer's worlds more than you think. It's easy to say that they are jealous, but sometimes (and especially Te's!) are unaware of their impact on others. Perhaps in your calculations, you simply don't know how to deal with equals and thus treat them differently than your leaders and followers.

    In a way, isn't that what defines you? It needs to be above or below you... otherwise you don't know how to deal with it... Seems logical to me.

  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    People either "above" or "below" me tend to appreciate me. People that I lead were pretty thankful and we got good results. The problem is with people that are supposed to be equal to me and that are not considered as competent as me by superiors. These equals see me progressing very fast and getting good results but feel a growing feeling of resentment over my progress. This is exacerbated by my implicit and automatic attitude of trying to lead. These people then feel talked down to. Then, they see me snatch leadership positions, give strong opinions regularly at meetings, argue with superiors when they are afraid to, ... and I start to take up to much space which makes them dislike me alot. Ironically, though, if I don't try to lead them they expect me to do so and will ask me.
    What is your goal with these people? Do you want a different result? Do you think you will be moving up into management, so it's worth the social cost?

    In social 'peer' groups there is a tremendous drive for everything to be even-steven. If you don't follow those unwritten social rules there will be tension. I spent most of my life playing along to avoid the tension, but it has made me weary of interacting with people at all. I've lived in a number of small towns where I have had to function as a peer to people with a significantly lower skill level than me as a performer. It is clear in the nuance of the interaction that even the slightest suggestion from me of possessing superior skill would be met with social rejection. I end up giving as many sincere compliments as I can, never saying anything about my skills, and doing my best. It not a recommended strategy though, because it erodes a sense of self respect.

    If the avoidance of tension is the goal, there are only two options I see: 1. artificially fit into your 'peer' group by pretending to be an equal. 2. Find a peer group that are actually your equals. Perhaps there is a 3rd option, but it is more complex. People will welcome a superior who makes them feel connected to their superiority. Some people can present themselves as "I'm marvelous, wonderful, and so are you for knowing me". People will buy into that, but there's no way I could pull it off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I agree that these stereotypes are really annoying. They drive me crazy too. The thing is, when dealing with a so called "domineering" type, people have much more reasons to be wary and not take any risks. However, it really doesn't make it too interesting for me to talk about the MBTI IRL openly because of these stereotypes.
    Sounds like a good choice to me. I don't discuss it much either. The most misunderstood I have ever felt is as an "INFJ" when people project this or that onto me. I don't particularly like being connected to a myriad of behaviors unknown to me and completely out of my control and concern.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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