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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    ...or more likely completely scuttle the idea.
    This.

    The idea is retarded.

    Time is linear, and anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot.

    There are some ways of looking at it that can bring in elements of cyclicality, but it is indeed still linear.

  2. #12
    Sheep pill, broster asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This.

    The idea is retarded.

    Time is linear, and anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot.

    There are some ways of looking at it that can bring in elements of cyclicality, but it is indeed still linear.
    Oh it's totally retarded.

    Astrology is 100 percent legit.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    Oh it's totally retarded.

    Astrology is 100 percent legit.
    At least astrology can be explained.

    You can't even describe your idea.

  4. #14
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    this all stems from a really really bad translation/interpretation of Jung

    he said they perceive as an eternal being would

    that isn't to say they take all things considered

    that is to say that their perception is the end-all of objectivity, perception is their principle problem

  5. #15
    Sheep pill, broster asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You can't even describe your idea.
    Not in a way you'd understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    Not in a way you'd understand.
    Not in a way you can even write down.

  7. #17
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    I had this all worked out in my head too, but whenever I try to write it down or verbalize it, it comes out garbled and incoherent.

    Maybe some Ni people could make sense of it, or more likely completely scuttle the idea.
    How about you try to give us a drawing of it? Or something to go on? Of course time isn't linear; however, that is how we experience it. Perhaps you mean according to a certain perspective it isn't?

  8. #18
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The two seem almost contradictory to me... The first says they don't live outside of time & can't be indifferent to it, and the second describes someone lost in their imagination who "transcends" time.

    The second one I relate to & I'm not a Ni type (not in Jungian theory anyway).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #19
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Well, it isn't really a concept exclusive to Socionics Ni, but the emphasis is a bit different isn't it. Does this resonate with you?
    Ni as a base (1st) function (IEI and ILI)

    As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity. Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through imagination, a person with base Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person ignores real data about the world too much. The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events.
    @Stansmith --

    Sigh. So close, and screwing up just one or two words gives quite a misleading picture.

    Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through imagination -- no, it's not imagination. Ni is *abstraction*.
    This manifests differently in (say) the INFJ or the INTJ.

    As applied to human relationships, Ni can be a powerful tool for suddenly understanding another person's state of mind or heart, or discovering their motives, or predicting their actions. But it is based on *data*, not imagination. Let's unpack this a little.

    The INTJ will look at others' behaviour (topics of speech, timing of responses, hesitancy, grammar, word choice, comfort level, and so forth) and use this to feed the Ni. All of these are external, and so based on either Te or Se.

    The INFJ will look at others' emotion (Fe) and compare it to their own inner state (Ti) to feed the Ni.

    Imagination *may* -- but need not -- kick in, as the Ni deploys: there are those who use Ni to, as it were make a simulacrum of another person, call it an image projected on a screen, or a character from The Sims. They then feed arbitrary situations to the character and watch as it reacts, based on the model constructed in the Ni. THAT is imagination: but it is not GETTING information from the primary world, rather it is APPLYING that information.

    So a (possible) double contrast. The INFJ gets primary information from emotion, not imagination; the INTJ may use imagination, but to interpret information they already have, not to acquire it.

    But -- on the praise side, the passage --

    However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person ignores real data about the world too much.

    is accurate. For the INTJ, it is because they have falsely found a match to their internal database, on too little information; for the INFJ, it is because they look inwardly (Ti) for confirmation of Ni, rather than to the real world (Te).

    And this line is pretty good too, tho' misleading as stated:

    The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events.

    This is accurate, *if* it means that the Ni user is not dependent on actually seeing events unfold in order to form a baseline; having already watched, and internalized, similar, or analogous, situations in the past; or the abstractive (not imaginative!) facility, will allow one to draw conclusions which are inevitable (if there was enough data drawn, and the Ni is developed), even before they have happened...this ability to predict is what appears to transcend the axis of time.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The two seem almost contradictory to me... The first says they don't live outside of time & can't be indifferent to it, and the second describes someone lost in their imagination who "transcends" time.

    The second one I relate to & I'm not a Ni type (not in Jungian theory anyway).
    I'd be wary of getting caught up on one or two words in Socionics descriptions, seeing as how they're often shitty translations from Russian (or whatever other eastern European language they were originally written in).

    As for reconciling these two ideas: think of there being various perspectives one can possess wrt time.

    - One can be thinking from a first person's perspective, experiencing first hand how being is changing, shifting, flowing in a synchronized fashion, according to time (I'm thinking looking out onto the [Se] observable world, and noticing the whole phenomenal world [think Kant, or the Matrix] looking, moving, changing, all in rhythm, according to time). <- this is sorta what I imagine FuzzyConduit meaning when he talked about time being "spherical", which is an extremely Se viewpoint (I.e., coming directly from the point of view of the subjective experiencer experiencing the external world outside itself), but what is "spherical" there is actually being, not time (and, specifically, one's subjective experience of being, as the "sphere" essentially has to do with one's field of perception [I.e., the range of Being that one experiences from one's subjective viewpoint {and, hence, why it's experienced as "spherical", as the experiencer is the center/focal point of the sphere, and everything within the radius of the sphere is what is within the experiencer's field of attention/perception/awareness}]).

    - Alternatively, one can be thinking from a third person's perspective, or even something different, where one isn't focusing on an individual at all, but is just looking at some part of Being (say, a particular industry, or country, or couple), and is seeing how being will change, shift, unfold for this part of Being as it rolls along the time axis. This "outside" perspective is very much how Ni operates. It's not the only way necessarily, but this is largely how Ni comes up with it's "unbelievable" and often accurate conclusions. It picks up on, intuits, the essential qualities of some part of Being, and then slides them along the time axis -- almost like one would on a youtube video, or video editing software, or a simple fast forward/rewind button -- to see how these essential qualities will interact with one another and thus unfold over time.

    By no means are these two an exhaustive account of all the various perspectives one can have wrt time

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