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  1. #1
    Member IXTJ's Avatar
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    Default Cognitive Functions - I don't get it.

    Please explain what the difference is between, for example:

    Se or Fe or Ti, with just putting the two letters together and looking at the patterns? For example what do all ESxx, ExFx, and IxTx have in common?

    I know with Keirsey, for example, he lumps xSxP, xSxJ, xNTx and xNJx's all together (and rightfully so), but you can see the similarities with all xxFJ's or xxTJ's or xNxP's, etc, and thereby, IxFx's and ExTx's and IxTx's....

    I don't get these Jung Functions. What do they add that isn't already considered?

    I read in another thread the difference between Se, and Si. It sounded exactly like the difference you would see in all ESxx with ISxx would act....?
    Inward Sensing or Outward sensing?


    Look forward to any comments.
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  2. #2
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IXTJ View Post
    Please explain what the difference is between, for example:

    Se or Fe or Ti, with just putting the two letters together and looking at the patterns? For example what do all ESxx, ExFx, and IxTx have in common?

    I know with Keirsey, for example, he lumps xSxP, xSxJ, xNTx and xNJx's all together (and rightfully so), but you can see the similarities with all xxFJ's or xxTJ's or xNxP's, etc, and thereby, IxFx's and ExTx's and IxTx's....

    I don't get these Jung Functions. What do they add that isn't already considered?

    I read in another thread the difference between Se, and Si. It sounded exactly like the difference you would see in all ESxx with ISxx would act....?
    Inward Sensing or Outward sensing?


    Look forward to any comments.
    Lol. This would be easier to discuss with specifics, but I suppose I see what you're asking. MBTI, Kiersey, etc. don't really "add" anything to the human psyche, they just sort of classify what's already there. I admit that I agree with you that alot of functions overlap and sound similar to eachother though.
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  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IXTJ View Post
    Se or Fe or Ti, with just putting the two letters together and looking at the patterns? For example what do all ESxx, ExFx, and IxTx have in common?
    The four-letter codes are actually shorthand for four-function code sequences (the eight codes are Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Fi, Fe) which sometimes are expanded to include all eight functions.

    So
    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
    ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni
    ENFJ = Fe + Ni + Se + Ti

    and so on. Each MBTI type is comprised of four functions.

    The first function is the primary.
    The second is the auxiliary (supports primary).
    The fourth is the inferior (often moved to in times of stress, the opposite of the primary).

    It's usually more useful to look at the functions themselves, because people don't always fit into a "type," and often have at least one function that is atypical that impacts their personality expression. It also helps you better understand why a person acts the way they do.


    I read in another thread the difference between Se, and Si. It sounded exactly like the difference you would see in all ESxx with ISxx would act....? Inward Sensing or Outward sensing?
    not sure what you are asking.

    Se = Sensory impressions of the external world, real-time, hands on

    Si = Recollection of past experienced sensations, also feels the internal state they had when experiencing those external sensations -- that is where the focus is, on the internal experience of those sensations rather than raw external true sensation.

    (This is why ESxx often reacts and adjusts to the external world's changes better, while ISxx tends to fight to keep things the way they have been... they're clinging to their internal perceptions from the past and maintaining them regardless of the changes in the outer world. But both are still Sensation... they still deal with actual data from an external reality, rather than suggestions of potentiality like N does.)
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  4. #4
    Member IXTJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The four-letter codes are actually shorthand for four-function code sequences (the eight codes are Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Fi, Fe) which sometimes are expanded to include all eight functions.

    So
    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
    ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni
    ENFJ = Fe + Ni + Se + Ti

    and so on. Each MBTI type is comprised of four functions.

    The first function is the primary.
    The second is the auxiliary (supports primary).
    The fourth is the inferior (often moved to in times of stress, the opposite of the primary).

    It's usually more useful to look at the functions themselves, because people don't always fit into a "type," and often have at least one function that is atypical that impacts their personality expression. It also helps you better understand why a person acts the way they do.




    not sure what you are asking.

    Se = Sensory impressions of the external world, real-time, hands on

    Si = Recollection of past experienced sensations, also feels the internal state they had when experiencing those external sensations -- that is where the focus is, on the internal experience of those sensations rather than raw external true sensation.

    (This is why ESxx often reacts and adjusts to the external world's changes better, while ISxx tends to fight to keep things the way they have been... they're clinging to their internal perceptions from the past and maintaining them regardless of the changes in the outer world. But both are still Sensation... they still deal with actual data from an external reality, rather than suggestions of potentiality like N does.)
    Okay, I understand what you are mostly saying.


    Let's take this:

    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe

    Do all INTP's have this exact same formula, in this exact same order? and if so, "Fe" seems the exact opposite; do all INTP's have Fe and if so, can you re-explain how Fe works with being an INTP - which seems entirely conflicting.

    Also, am an IxTJ. I constantly debate the N/S. How would using the functions help out?
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  5. #5
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    In theory, according to the MBTI, INTPs will have the same order, because it's a part of what defines the type. I personally don't believe it, though. There are way more than sixteen possible combinations, and whenever people take tests that directly score the functions, people usually don't get the exact orders that the MBTI describs.
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    Member IXTJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In theory, according to the MBTI, INTPs will have the same order, because it's a part of what defines the type. I personally don't believe it, though. There are way more than sixteen possible combinations, and whenever people take tests that directly score the functions, people usually don't get the exact orders that the MBTI describs.
    I have never believed there are "just" 16 types, but I believe in 16 generally thin (or even open) boundaries.

    For example, I would not put the 16 types in a closed vertical and horizontal box; but I would put them between infinite (for example) horizontal walls. Thus, you are grouped with your type but you can wonder to the left or right. e.g. some Republicans are more liberal than others.
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  7. #7
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IXTJ View Post
    I have never believed there are "just" 16 types, but I believe in 16 generally thin (or even open) boundaries.

    For example, I would not put the 16 types in a closed vertical and horizontal box; but I would put them between infinite (for example) horizontal walls. Thus, you are grouped with your type but you can wonder to the left or right. e.g. some Republicans are more liberal than others.
    Oh, I know that. That's exactly what I'm referring too, though. It's just that, while I score as an INTP almost always on MBTI tests, on raw function tests I score a function order that is not only not the INTP's order, it's not really like any MBTI type's order. So the validity of the orders is definitely questionable.
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  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IXTJ View Post
    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
    Do all INTP's have this exact same formula, in this exact same order?
    As Magic says (and you respond), no, not in practice. This is why there are often arguments on INTPc for example on who the "real INTPs" are... or MGB's posts there (I think) that describe 6 potential different types of INTPs, and so on.

    As minor points of comparison, my Ni actually ranks #3 in my function order, and has at times drifted into the top 2, although best fit was still INTP. Someone like Rajah, however, I think scores a high Te... and so we look different.

    There are also INTPs who have developed their Ne and tend to use it (as part of their socializing process) much more than they outwardly use their Ti.

    But you get the point. There might still be a general internal Ti thinking process, buttressed by possibilities (Ne) as a fuel for the Ti, but it's flavored heavily by whatever other functions actually are stronger in that person.

    and if so, "Fe" seems the exact opposite; do all INTP's have Fe and if so, can you re-explain how Fe works with being an INTP - which seems entirely conflicting.
    Not sure what you mean by the latter.

    Fe is the "vent system" for INTPs, usually. It's the opposite of their primary so they tend to not feel comfortable with it naturally... and when they are under lots of pressure and their primary is not solving the problem and Ne can't get them out of it either, they tend to "flip out" emotionally, respond aggressively to perceived social pressures that might not actually exist, get hypersensitive, and so on.

    INTPs can learn to use Fe just like anyone else can; it's essentially a social language one uses to prioritize and express one's commitments to others and place in the community. And since it's externalized, it doesn't run interference against the internal judging Ti process. I think this is one way in which INTPs don't instinctively "get it" -- they see Fe as an imposition by unfair/illogical social forces (because sometimes it can be leveraged as such) rather than as a voluntary means of expression that is more proactive in nature.

    People like ExFJ who have Fe as a primary look different with it as their main; it's their instinctive approach, buttressed by other functions, and they tend to have developed the nuances of it.

    Also, am an IxTJ. I constantly debate the N/S. How would using the functions help out?
    If you are IxTJ and are sure on that, your function order is theoretically either:

    ISTJ = Si + Te + Fi + Ne
    INTJ = Ni + Te + Fi + Se

    ISTJs think inside the box based on their understanding of how things worked and what they have experienced. (They make good engineers... they go by the book, they know what has worked and what has not, they are good at risk managing in THAT sense.... but they hesitate to go outside the "prudent".) With Ne as the inferior, they sometimes get paranoid about the possible dangers of a situation, they misjudge people and situations, they are very uncomfortable in new situations and keep trying to force it to work according to the old rules.

    INTJs think outside the box and spin things around on their head. They are not nearly bound by past experience and established methods. They are good risk managers, but also tend to know when to take a risk and like to exert control with Te over the situation to circumvent the risk. With Se as the inferior, they often neglect their own bodies, they ignore external data in favor of the "way it's supposed to work!" according to their theories/ideals, they often get very internalized and just do not accept external limitations in the way ISTJs do.
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  9. #9
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As Magic says (and you respond), no, not in practice. This is why there are often arguments on INTPc for example on who the "real INTPs" are... or MGB's posts there (I think) that describe 6 potential different types of INTPs, and so on.
    Interesting; I'll have to check that out.
    As minor points of comparison, my Ni actually ranks #3 in my function order, and has at times drifted into the top 2, although best fit was still INTP. Someone like Rajah, however, I think scores a high Te... and so we look different.

    There are also INTPs who have developed their Ne and tend to use it (as part of their socializing process) much more than they outwardly use their Ti.
    I believe I fall into that category, though I don't think it's so much "for" socializing. At least, Ne was always the function I was most aware of. But then that could be simply from it being extraverted.
    But you get the point. There might still be a general internal Ti thinking process, buttressed by possibilities (Ne) as a fuel for the Ti, but it's flavored heavily by whatever other functions actually are stronger in that person.

    Fe is the "vent system" for INTPs, usually. It's the opposite of their primary so they tend to not feel comfortable with it naturally... and when they are under lots of pressure and their primary is not solving the problem and Ne can't get them out of it either, they tend to "flip out" emotionally, respond aggressively to perceived social pressures that might not actually exist, get hypersensitive, and so on.

    INTPs can learn to use Fe just like anyone else can; it's essentially a social language one uses to prioritize and express one's commitments to others and place in the community. And since it's externalized, it doesn't run interference against the internal judging Ti process. I think this is one way in which INTPs don't instinctively "get it" -- they see Fe as an imposition by unfair/illogical social forces (because sometimes it can be leveraged as such) rather than as a voluntary means of expression that is more proactive in nature.
    And then, there's also the other four functions, which in eight-function theory, are called the "shadows", and also are used under stress. I'm learning more and more about how these play out. People here even thought that two of them, Fi and Te, were "primary" for me. But I have come to see, (to answer Magic's point) that they usually play a more negative role under stress. So you have to look at them for the role they play in your life; not necessarly how much or how strongly they are used.
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