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  1. #81
    LadyLazarus
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    I thought this was dead.

  2. #82
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I think the best way of putting T/F is in terms of evaluations that are either "impersonal" or "personal". "Personal" is a bit ambiguous, since it is also used for an "introverted" (subjective) perspective. So like subjective/objective, it gets used for either I/E or T/F. You can say F covers both the "personal" and "interpersonal".

    So I suggest "technical" (T) vs "humane" (F). Humane (originally "having qualities befitting human beings") meaning pertaining to humanity as the determinant of something having "worth" (and thus getting our emotions involved), as opposed to just being an object ("what it is"), which is a technical perspective.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Fun in the Sun's Avatar
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    I understand logic just fine. I just don't like to belittle people for not knowing the things I know. Some people either can't grasp certain concepts or they're just not interested in knowing them. There is nothing wrong with that.

  4. #84
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    From Jung:


    Affect
    By the term affect we understand a state of feeling characterized by a perceptible bodily innervation on the one hand and a peculiar disturbance of the ideational process on the other [5]. I use emotion as synonymous with affect I distinguish—in contrast to Bleuler (v. Affectivity)—feeling from affect, in spite of the fact that no definite demarcation exists, since every feeling, after attaining a certain strength, releases physical innervations, thus becoming an affect. On practical grounds, however, it is advisable to discriminate affect from feeling, since feeling can be a disposable function, whereas affect is usually not so. Similarly, affect is clearly distinguished from feeling by quite perceptible physical innervations, while feeling for the most part lacks them, or their intensity is so slight that they can only be demonstrated by the finest instruments, as for example the psycho-galvanic phenomenon [6]. Affect becomes cumulative through the sensation of the physical innervations released by it. This perception gave rise to the James-Lang theory of affect, which would make bodily innervations wholly responsible for affects. As opposed to this extreme view, I regard affect as a psychic feeling-state on the one hand, and as a physiological innervation-state on the other; each of which has a cumulative, reciprocal effect upon the other, i.e. a component of sensation is joined to the reinforced feeling, through which the affect is approximated more to sensation (v. Sensation), and differentiated essentially from the state of feeling. Pronounced affects, i.e. affects accompanied by violent physical innervation, I do not assign to the province of feeling but to the realm of the sensation function (v. Function).



    ...So emotions are S, not F!

  5. #85
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun in the Sun View Post
    I understand logic just fine. I just don't like to belittle people for not knowing the things I know. Some people either can't grasp certain concepts or they're just not interested in knowing them. There is nothing wrong with that.
    There is something wrong with it if those concepts or information are something the person needs in order to navigate some real life situation. Willful ignorance in such a case is definitely harmful. Of course belittling someone in such a case is unlikely to be productive. Better to help them get a clue so they can move on.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #86
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    After all this posts, for me F vs T is still not clear and I would appreciate more discussion on it.
    Did you notice how on forum, if someone is a thinker and shows an emotion, some thinker will immediately say: YOU'RE NOT A THINKER!
    And if some feeler writes something intellectually stimulating everyone is ok with that.
    I think all descriptions I've read about F and T are bull. I'm a living proof.
    I would really like some better explanations.
    Like, thinker is a robot? And feeler is emotional roller coaster?

    Basically F and T are about making decisions. We all make decisions with both, but depending which one is dominant, that one makes us by MBTI T or F. So now is the question what kind of decision making is T and what kind F? T is let's say similar to mathematics. And F is just listening your emotion and acting on it. By that description I'm T. But that doesn't make me cold or not interested in people. For example, I in my decisions treat emotion as data too. I consider that if I say to person do this in cold voice, knowing that person, I know they might get offended, so I'll consider their emotion and be nice to them and say it nicely and I'll get what I want. If I didn't consider their emotion I might not get what I wanted.

    Also about T being about things and F being about people. Bull. For starters ANY extrovert is extremely interested in people. Like extroverts are very lonely without people and need them, therefore value them in general. It is logical actually. There might be extrovert that is not at all interested in others, but that wouldn't last, rarely anyone would be with someone who steps on them like they're just a furniture.

    Also T being a workaholic - yeah jobs are important but let's be honest, how would you consider your job being the goal of your life? Main important thing? (maybe only an artist, but that comes from the heart, not T). We all want love, emotional thing. (on side lying to yourself)

    Thoughts?

  7. #87
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    Also about T being about things and F being about people. Bull. For starters ANY extrovert is extremely interested in people. Like extroverts are very lonely without people and need them, therefore value them in general. It is logical actually. There might be extrovert that is not at all interested in others, but that wouldn't last, rarely anyone would be with someone who steps on them like they're just a furniture.
    There are basically two dimensions to "people-focus". I/E and something that very loosely and in part corresponds to T/F. I/E is about your approach to others. We're either understimulated or overstimulated, so we therefore turn outward or inward to correct the level of stimulation.
    But that's separate from our rational focus. So you can be overstimulated by the external world (and thus people), and turn inward, being very reserved, but can still have more of a rational focus toward people.
    Your decisions will focus on personal or interpersonal considerations. Likewise, an extravert can turn outward for stimulation from people, yet still think more in terms of impersonal objects; even treating the people themselves as objects!
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  8. #88
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    There are basically two dimensions to "people-focus". I/E and something that very loosely and in part corresponds to T/F. I/E is about your approach to others. We're either understimulated or overstimulated, so we therefore turn outward or inward to correct the level of stimulation.
    But that's separate from our rational focus. So you can be overstimulated by the external world (and thus people), and turn inward, being very reserved, but can still have more of a rational focus toward people.
    Your decisions will focus on personal or interpersonal considerations. Likewise, an extravert can turn outward for stimulation from people, yet still think more in terms of impersonal objects; even treating the people themselves as objects!
    I get this all and maybe I was too harsh and mostly thought of my individual problem. This can help some people to determine their T or F and I can also classify some people by that too. But in my individual case I am more interested in people than things and I care for people . I'm sensitive and I want people to be nice to me cause it just makes me feel good and I want to be happy; and I like to please people. I get that you have to be rude sometimes and I don't have problem with that, but why would you do that if you don't have to? Anyways I do not like or follow social rules, I just like to please people individually. And I value how I feel about something extremely important to me the most; but I often deny my own needs in order to fulfill other's in little things. Does something has a meaning is really important to me personally and I like logic. I am also very analytical and I think a lot. I also don't let anyone to put me down. I do like mathematics and informatics, things like clothes and furniture but more in creative way. But I am not interested in things more than people or maybe I'm getting wrong definiton of things? Are things maybe issues? My career is about finances and I do enjoy putting things in order but that's my J. But I'm not extremely interested in finances. I'm interested in the relationships and situations with people more cause it's just more fun, logically it gives me more pleasure, so I value it more. But I guess I am not caring towards people deeply, more superficially. I consider it to be nice if we're nice to each other and I feel sometimes forced to please someone cause I am good at reading others. And I feel uncomfortable if I see someone's need and ignore it. I might only do that if my need for opposite is higher than uncomfort. I also really dislike some boring theoretisation, I prefer fun and enthusiastic stuff. If you'd meet me in real life you'd see very warm enthusiastic person with lots of energy that is very opend and nice, but also don't have a problem to stand up for herself if necessary. And being really fun, but responsable. I'm also kind of crazy but that just might be cause I'm a girl.

    I even got myself confused with myself

    I guess after all this conversations on forum (mostly me with myself) I think I'm T. I guess I can be T and more interested in people but maybe not in caring about them, but more scientifically. And then there must be very much misconceptions about ENTJ type. I guess that's cause there ain't much ENTJs on forum anyway and the few individuals cannot make a clear picture. Or I'm just a rare case with high F. I mean MBTI is just a theory and everyone is individual. I guess my J will have to be satisfied with ENTJ.

    So i guess I am definitely T now, so don't judge me if you see too much emotions from ENTJ I don't wanna kill you (once my sister called me an assassin with emotions, I guess that's it)

  9. #89
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    But I am not interested in things more than people or maybe I'm getting wrong definiton of things? Are things maybe issues? My career is about finances and I do enjoy putting things in order but that's my J. But I'm not extremely interested in finances. I'm interested in the relationships and situations with people more cause it's just more fun, logically it gives me more pleasure, so I value it more. But I guess I am not caring towards people deeply, more superficially. I consider it to be nice if we're nice to each other and I feel sometimes forced to please someone cause I am good at reading others. And I feel uncomfortable if I see someone's need and ignore it. I might only do that if my need for opposite is higher than uncomfort. I also really dislike some boring theoretisation, I prefer fun and enthusiastic stuff. If you'd meet me in real life you'd see very warm enthusiastic person with lots of energy that is very opend and nice, but also don't have a problem to stand up for herself if necessary. And being really fun, but responsable. I'm also kind of crazy but that just might be cause I'm a girl.

    I guess after all this conversations on forum (mostly me with myself) I think I'm T. I guess I can be T and more interested in people but maybe not in caring about them, but more scientifically.
    That's an example of what I mean by "impersonal" rather than "personal". Not caring about them for themselves, but rather "scientifically" (a definite T "impersonal" field), and because it's "fun"; meaning "logically it gives me more pleasure".

    Those would be more "T" reasons to engage people, and depending on your age, the inferior will come up and give it a genuine F awareness (niceness, not ignoring needs, etc), but the T will be running the show.
    (from the classic temperament angle, ENTJ is the "pure Choleric", and they will seem "bright and friendly, like a Sanguine"; i.e. ESF/ENP, but be focused more on their goals than the people themselves).

    Being female will also tend to make you seem more "personal" (gener roles), regardless of type. Female T's often have difficulty with the T/F dimension.
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  10. #90
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Those would be more "T" reasons to engage people, and depending on your age, the inferior will come up and give it a genuine F awareness (niceness, not ignoring needs, etc), but the T will be running the show.
    Wow thank you so much for your answer. You kind of did help me with this. I do actually genuinely care for people, but my mission in life definitely is not to make people happy. I do think about humanity but I don't really care for it, I care for my dreams the most. It was hard for me to understand that I am not an F since I project my emotion on people a lot and can feel their emotions, but when I think about something emotional very deeply inside of me that is not that easy to express. I treat it like an issue. I once liked a guy and had deep feelings for him, so I asked him out and told him "I like you.". But I treated that as a fact, very cold. To express my deep emotion I can, but I feel too exposed, unsafe.

    I remember reading about ENTJs as those kind of people that when you talk to them you feel like you've been in the battle and they are just we had a normal conversation. My whole family have told me this multiple times and I didn't get it until I read it. I was very mad on them for not wanting to talk to me deeply but they claimed to be very drained from it. And I didn't get what was so draining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    (from the classic temperament angle, ENTJ is the "pure Choleric", and they will seem "bright and friendly, like a Sanguine"; i.e. ESF/ENP, but be focused more on their goals than the people themselves)
    I can relate to this. I am very irritable and sensitive and dark when I'm with myself or family (but I can also be bright when happy). But with people I am very optimistic and happy, they just make me that way. Nothing of it is fake, I just feel like that in that moment and I put my darkness aside. I guess that is my E. But I would rarely be rude to people. The posts I've read from some ENTJs are so cold and rude and with "know it all" attitude. I think an ESTJ would be more rude than ENTJ, by maybe getting things to literal. (aside on individuality). My Ni is preventing me to be too rude, maybe my Ni is very developed. And ENTJs N is making them very imaginative and living in a fantasy world they want to make a reality. But I definitely have a high Fi too (even thought I am relatevely young, I'm turning 25 this year).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Being female will also tend to make you seem more "personal" (gener roles), regardless of type. Female T's often have difficulty with the T/F dimension.
    I was aware of this from the start. I guess women are more allowed from young age to express their emotions unlike men. I feel very sorry for many men that aren't allowed to do that and have to suppress themselves. I wish men and women would be equally allowed to be emotional or to be heartless. I also want people to be nice to me so I'm nice to them. I think that is fair and that is my T too, I guess.

    But maybe the biggest thing that made me doubt to be F is that in very stressed situations, life-death, I am extremely cold. If I think about a situation a lot I may get very emotional, but that is not my first instinct. My mom is an F and she is very caring, she put all our needs above hers and I even tried to explain to her that she needs to take care of herself too. She is also very concerned about what will people say/think. I don't give a shit, I care about what I think and what I feel the most. I don't say that people's words cannot hurt me, but I consider what I want more relevant.

    But my life dream is not to boss people around, my biggest dreams come from my Fi. I do enjoy to have things under control and manage people and take charge and have power, get things done efficiently, but if I don't have that I can live with it. Sorry for my maybe too comprehensive and exhaustive posts, I'm just a bit

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