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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomkid View Post
    That's making a lot more sense now, thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomkid View Post
    yeah I imagined it would be something like that
    Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear that I at least got through to my target audience.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I just see your points as nitpicking. I stated in my original post that the examples were just illustrating stereotypes of T-vs.-F thinking. As such, I agreed with the weakness of the examples, and you're just agreeing with me by pointing out how easily you can argue them.

    Meanwhile, you ignore the main point of my post: The use of the empathy-vs.-equity model as an analog for F vs. T. That's really the point I would like you to acknowledge, not the weakness of the examples, which I admit. The examples only exist to illustrate the analog; they're disposable. If you wish, approve or disapprove the analog and then propose illustrations of your own, if the illustrations are so important to you.
    I still think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I don't give a shit about the concrete illustrations for their own sake. Those obviously cannot ever be perfect, that's fine. I'm not going to propose my own illustrations instead either. I'm more concerned about the T/F concepts here. If you feel refining of that is nitpicking, that's not my problem.

    I did think of more points that I didn't yet have time to bring up but I can do that now;

    You said F is about "Issues involving achieving harmony between specific parties by empathizing with their needs", this to me sounded like too much of the extraverted attitude is in it. The T one sounded a bit introverted on the other hand, "Issues involving equity between abstract concepts".

    I also implied that I noticed how you were focusing on only the more subjective human related matters in your examples. Though it's not a bad idea to do the comparison of T and F on a subject that's often the topic of humanistic interest (typically F).

  3. #53
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    Btw where did you get the idea to use the expression "equity" for T? I still think that's not the best word to describe it. Though it's pretty good, but "impersonal objectivity" is more to the point, I think. I used the word "simplicity" but that's only part of it.

    Whether "empathy" is all-encompassing enough to define F, I'm not quite sure about that, either.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Doomkid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear that I at least got through to my target audience.
    that infp vs intp example was good cause it's exactally how my brother(intp) would argue during a subject

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    I still think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I don't give a shit about the concrete illustrations for their own sake. Those obviously cannot ever be perfect, that's fine. I'm not going to propose my own illustrations instead either. I'm more concerned about the T/F concepts here. If you feel refining of that is nitpicking, that's not my problem.

    I did think of more points that I didn't yet have time to bring up but I can do that now;
    And you're still ignoring *my* point about addressing the empathy-vs.-equity model as an analog for F vs. T.

    But at least you were succinct and clear about the following two points, so I'll address those:

    You said F is about "Issues involving achieving harmony between specific parties by empathizing with their needs", this to me sounded like too much the extraverted attitude is in it. The T one sounded a bit introverted on the other hand, "Issues involving equity between abstract concepts".
    I'm just addressing T-vs.-F. As such, I'm conflating Te and Ti into "T as a whole" (and the same with F). To me, the extraverted and introverted versions of a given letter aren't that far apart and can be conflated in a pinch for purposes of spelling out some broad principles (such as the difference between F and T). See the following post on Fi vs. Fe for more on the subject: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2265476

    Anyway, this is just a tangent. Again, you're nitpicking. The debate was about T vs. F. Is it really that important on the scale of my overall point that my F example is kind of Fe and my T example is kind of Ti?

    Again, my point was about addressing the empathy-vs.-equity model as an analog for F vs. T, and you're still ducking that in favor of nitpicking the illustrations.

    I also implied that I noticed how you were focusing on only the more subjective human related matters in your examples. Though it's not a bad idea to do the comparison of T and F on a subject that's often the topic of humanistic interest (typically F).
    I'm guilty of that to some extent. I wanted to flip-flop the examples to show how either kind of issue could be attractive to Feelers under the right circumstances. So the examples both had to have some F application as well as T application.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Btw where did you get the idea to use the expression "equity" for T? I still think that's not the best word to describe it. Though it's pretty good, but "impersonal objectivity" is more to the point, I think. I used the word "simplicity" but that's only part of it.

    Whether "empathy" is all-encompassing enough to define F, I'm not quite sure about that, either.
    Okay, so you actually don't mind the overall empathy-vs.-equity model as an analog for F vs. T. You just don't like the terminology? And/or the illustrations?

  7. #57
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    @infinity-

    I have to bail on the thread; it's bedtime.

    My final word on the subject: Keep in mind that my initial 2 posts were directed at Doomkid and the questions that he/she raised. Doomkid seems satisfied with my explanation, so like Dubya I'll say, "Mission accomplished." But I'll take it from your responses that my explanation wouldn't be good enough for "purists" on the subject.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I'm just addressing T-vs.-F. As such, I'm conflating Te and Ti into "T as a whole" (and the same with F). To me, the extraverted and introverted versions of a given letter aren't that far apart and can be conflated in a pinch for purposes of spelling out some broad principles (such as the difference between F and T). See the following post on Fi vs. Fe for more on the subject: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2265476

    Anyway, this is just a tangent. Again, you're nitpicking. The debate was about T vs. F. Is it really that important on the scale of my overall point that my F example is kind of Fe and my T example is kind of Ti?
    I don't see it as "nitpicking" myself but I already explained that. We won't agree on this then; my thinking is just like this, I like to have everything refined and unambiguous.

    Where it sounded like Fe/Ti, wasn't just the illustrations but the more general statements that I quoted.


    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Okay, so you actually don't mind the overall empathy-vs.-equity model as an analog for F vs. T. You just don't like the terminology? And/or the illustrations?
    The model itself, partially OK. (Ah, and terminology is about as okay.) My main problem there is this, I think empathy for F is a definition that's too narrow. Do you disagree on that and if so why? I usually read F is about some sort of value system. Actually in your illustrations it seemed to be about more too than just empathy and relationships; e.g. where there was a reasoning mentioned about how the right to life is lost - that way of reasoning really wasn't explained there though. But you're the definite F type of the two of us, so you'd be able to explain this better from experience than me. I'm still just trying to understand it. The nuances escape me; e.g. how exactly can Feelers, by having a distinct value system, analyse these F issues in such a really refined way? (Like, when you said in the first example that F types would have a real "field day" with the fiancée/best friend thingie.)

    The T part of the model is mostly okay by me, though I could still elaborate on that a bit more, but I'm going to bed right now. Will check back tomorrow and perhaps then I'll have the time to add some of my thoughts on that one.

    Btw the illustrations were no worse than any other kind of illustrations would have been, so as far as that, they were alright; I have this type of data crunching and analysing mind though, if you don't, then I guess I can't expect you to try analysing in that fashion. That's why you saw it as nitpicking, I think.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    @infinity-

    I have to bail on the thread; it's bedtime.

    My final word on the subject: Keep in mind that my initial 2 posts were directed at Doomkid and the questions that he/she raised. Doomkid seems satisfied with my explanation, so like Dubya I'll say, "Mission accomplished." But I'll take it from your responses that my explanation wouldn't be good enough for "purists" on the subject.
    Haha I just said bedtime for me too :P

    Guess I'm such a "purist" then... anyway if you want to continue tomorrow, let me know then. Good night!

  10. #60
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    T is about materialism, pragmatism, rationalism, (all) objects' utility...

    F is about spiritualism, idealism, romanticism, (living) objects' value...

    As for the original question... I think T and F are both functions tied directly to an individual's ego whereas N/S are tied to superego and id...

    So for someone to have a thick skin in relation to a function, he has to have that function in the introverted direction, that is to say Ti or Fi...

    Someone with Fi cannot be (in my theory) hurt by Fe feedback for instance... A Fi function would imply that the individual has a disregard for Fe i.e. social structures and rules... So you cannot hurt someone with something he\she doesn't value... However, he\she would be vulnerable to criticism of whathever he\she holds dear in his\her Fi... (i.e. things of the F domain that he\she cherishes and defines his identity with...same goes for Ti but the things are of the T layer this time...)

    The same goes for Ti and Te as well... So a function being externalized means we are susceptible to feedback from that layer... and it hurts if the function is tied to ego (i.e. F or T) and the feedback is negative...

    I don't think someone with Se and Ne can get (emotionally\mentally) hurt by negative Se or Ne feedback... But may use such feedback for precautionary means...i.e. to check whether the owner of Se or Ne feedback could pose a threat to him\her...

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