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  1. #91
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Being female will also tend to make you seem more "personal" (gener roles), regardless of type. Female T's often have difficulty with the T/F dimension.
    This seems contradictory. If female T's seem more "personal" (presumably than male T's), this suggests they have less difficulty with the T/F dimension.

    I disagree in any case, and find that type trumps gender nearly every time.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #92
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, because they mistake the more "personal" aspects of the gender roles (including emotions, etc) for Feeling, thinking they might prefer F.
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  3. #93
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This seems contradictory. If female T's seem more "personal" (presumably than male T's), this suggests they have less difficulty with the T/F dimension.

    I disagree in any case, and find that type trumps gender nearly every time.
    If I got correctly what are u saying, I understand why you think that way and that may be the case with some girls.
    But there is other problem with gender roles in which I can relate. I may be T but by being E I mostly interacted with girls and girls express their emotions and if you sort of don't you won't fit in. This may be too raw of explanation, but consider that men between themshelves don't express emotions. You may say it is not ENTJ's style want to fit in, but a part of E will want that and even if you're stubborn and do it your way, tell me would you if you're F express emotion in front of male group? By my adjustment therefore I might develop my F far more. My sister is I and T and her F is relay bad, so what you said might apply to her, but she is I.

  4. #94
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    If I got correctly what are u saying, I understand why you think that way and that may be the case with some girls.
    But there is other problem with gender roles in which I can relate. I may be T but by being E I mostly interacted with girls and girls express their emotions and if you sort of don't you won't fit in. This may be too raw of explanation, but consider that men between themshelves don't express emotions. You may say it is not ENTJ's style want to fit in, but a part of E will want that and even if you're stubborn and do it your way, tell me would you if you're F express emotion in front of male group? By my adjustment therefore I might develop my F far more. My sister is I and T and her F is relay bad, so what you said might apply to her, but she is I.
    I think an F would be more comfortable expressing emotion, in front of any group. The NTJs I have known have little regard for social convention, except inasmuch as they decide following it will help them get what they want. They don't internalize it as some inherent good. My good female friend who is ENTJ is like this. She simply is much more vocal about what she thinks is right, or stupid, while I put less effort into setting others straight and just go about my own business as I see fit.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #95
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think an F would be more comfortable expressing emotion, in front of any group. The NTJs I have known have little regard for social convention, except inasmuch as they decide following it will help them get what they want. They don't internalize it as some inherent good. My good female friend who is ENTJ is like this. She simply is much more vocal about what she thinks is right, or stupid, while I put less effort into setting others straight and just go about my own business as I see fit.
    I don't think fs are more comfortable expressing emotion in public. Outside the forum I'm pretty calm. And non emotional. I've even had people tell me they couldn't see me getting mad. I know I'm not a t.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #96
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Haven't gone through the whole thread yet, but I agree with Coriolis and others re: comfort with expressing emotion in public. I think women are often socialized to be more cooperative and group-oriented in a way that suggests Fe -- not because they're told it's how they should act, but because they learn early on that being more self-focused and aggressive will not be rewarded in the same way. (I'm not expressing this as well as I would like, but pretty much everything I'm trying to describe is straight out of "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg.) That mock-Fe has everything to do with acceptable social behavior -- and nothing to do with actual emotions.
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  7. #97
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think an F would be more comfortable expressing emotion, in front of any group.
    Really not true. My mom that I am very close with is an F and sometimes exactly cause she is an F she wouldn't express her emotions, e.g. at work cause it is not socially acceptable she will contain her emotions

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The NTJs I have known have little regard for social convention, except inasmuch as they decide following it will help them get what they want.
    Bolded is true. But other part is an unhealthy approach. I am nice and kind to people not usually cause I want something from them. I consider we should be kind to each other cause I think we learned from history that anarchy and being a savage will not get you far. I mean if I go and kill a person I'm annoyed with I am putting my own life at risk. You don't kill another person and you respect that law cause you don't wanna get murdered too. You wanna freely walk the planet and enjoy life. Therefore it is logical to bi kind, you don't want someone to be rude to you so you are not to them. It is different when you have an argument, sometimes being rude is maybe necessary, but that is more of exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My good female friend who is ENTJ is like this. She simply is much more vocal about what she thinks is right, or stupid, while I put less effort into setting others straight and just go about my own business as I see fit.
    Exactly, I am not stupid; I agree that extroverts will tend to do that, unlike I; But with my Ni I am pretty confident to decide who is worthy of my time. Or I just try a little and very fast I see how am I standing.

    Also I do get T of like 57% and F 43%. That should be considered, as everyone is and individual.
    But the main problem is that some unhealthy actions of certain type would be considered as that type's trait, but in reality if someone is not having that trait it doesn't make them different type, but maybe more healthy one; vice versa too.

  8. #98
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    Really not true. My mom that I am very close with is an F and sometimes exactly cause she is an F she wouldn't express her emotions, e.g. at work cause it is not socially acceptable she will contain her emotions
    Consider it this way: in any given situation, look around and see which individuals are expressing the most emotion. Are these people more likely to be T-types or F; or is it more complicated than that (e.g. Fe vs. Fi)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    Bolded is true. But other part is an unhealthy approach. I am nice and kind to people not usually cause I want something from them. I consider we should be kind to each other cause I think we learned from history that anarchy and being a savage will not get you far. I mean if I go and kill a person I'm annoyed with I am putting my own life at risk. You don't kill another person and you respect that law cause you don't wanna get murdered too. You wanna freely walk the planet and enjoy life. Therefore it is logical to bi kind, you don't want someone to be rude to you so you are not to them. It is different when you have an argument, sometimes being rude is maybe necessary, but that is more of exception.
    If I kill someone who is making things difficult and as a result land in jail for an extended period, will this help me get what I want? Yes, even in this extreme example, my reasoning works out. In more pedestrian cases, it means doing things like indulging in smalltalk with the bureaucrat or store manager who is in a position to grant or deny my request, to put them at ease and get them to view me favorably, so they are more disposed to help me out. On a personal, social, or even moral level, I really don't care what they think of me. I would never be rude, but generally don't attempt to be overly personable either.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #99
    Member Agnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Consider it this way: in any given situation, look around and see which individuals are expressing the most emotion. Are these people more likely to be T-types or F; or is it more complicated than that (e.g. Fe vs. Fi)?
    Look, I agree on the fact that by that you will mostly distinguish if someone is F or T. But I am talking about exceptions in which you see that that is not an ultimate rule. I consider myself more of exception by really expressing my emotions (because of my E, energetic and enthusiastic nature and high F) and still being T.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If I kill someone who is making things difficult and as a result land in jail for an extended period, will this help me get what I want? Yes, even in this extreme example, my reasoning works out.
    This is an example of exception. As general rule you respect law against murder cause you don't wanna get murdered too. Imagine if there would be no law against murder, how safe would you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    On a personal, social, or even moral level, I really don't care what they think of me. I would never be rude, but generally don't attempt to be overly personable either.
    You have to consider that you are not just a T but also an I.

  10. #100
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    Es are more comfortable expressing anything than Is. Fs just happen to rely more on emotion. So an E_T_ will be more comfortable expressing emotion than an I_F_, but will be less inclined to do so.

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