Shadow Type

[yeghor]

Yeah, sorry, totally accidental.

Didn't realize it was even there.

This turned into a rapid learning session...thanks...

So what's your heart's desire?

 

[cascadeco]

Yeah, you're right, that was overstated and I agree about the metaperspectivizing. It's just ... a particular flavor I'm finding hard to put into words..

It's an over eagerness to tailor other peoples' responses to fit ones' theory, rather than being really open to questioning or scrapping the theory. When peoples' responses go against what would support ones' theory on the forum, that person can either throw out the 'you're mistyped' card, to continue to maintain their theory, or continue to use the theory to explain other peoples' behaviors/selves, rather like forcing it on them, shifting the other persons' reasons for doing x or y to something supported by their theory. It's done all the time on the forum; wouldn't say it's a strictly Ni thing though. All of it can be done pretty easily since mbti is a pretty loose framework to begin with, everyone just an armchair theorist.

 

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, you're right, that was overstated and I agree about the metaperspectivizing. It's just ... a particular flavor I'm finding hard to put into words.

eta: it's like there's a fluidity and flow and resonating richness to Ni - at least in INFJs, but I think in most of the Ni-doms I've interacted with and certainly in myself as well - that gives a different flavor than the more rigid and kind of thin/harder feel of Ti. Or from another angle, the Ni metaperspective thing requires being in a state where it's possible to shift fluidly and easily between and among perspectives/angles of perspective and that's different from what I meant by "theorize" (eta2) which is more linear or imposed-upon or something like that.

Argh. Still don't have the words.

It's the difference between Analytic (Ti) and Continental (Ni) philosophy.

The difference between Judgment and Perception.

"Judgment is Perception crystallized." - [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]

Or something like that.

 

[Zarathustra]

This turned into a fast-paced learning session...thanks...

I used to post more often.

So what's your heart's desire?

The answer to that is complicated.

And I usually only share it with women who I'm sleeping with.

 

[Werebudgie]

That definition is ok.

I think we've proposed better ones than that here.

IME, the Ni meta-perspective for sure has something to do with the space one has to be in to engage in that fluid perspective shifting I mentioned in my last comment and that has been discussed elsewhere in relation to Ni. The "sort of hovering above specific perspective" quality for me isn't about hovering over in the big picture versus details sense, it's more about that state of being positioned to shift/move around between and among perspectives that may by themselves act as limiting parameters.

Not sure that wording/description makes sense outside my own head, though. It's clear inside here in the metaphorical visual image sense

It's the difference between Analytic (Ti) and Continental (Ni) philosophy.

The difference between Judgment and Perception.

"Judgment is Perception crystallized." - [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]

Or something like that.

I actually think I may get that!

 

[yeghor]

Yeah, you're right, that was overstated and I agree about the metaperspectivizing. It's just ... a particular flavor I'm finding hard to put into words.

eta: it's like there's a fluidity and flow and resonating richness to Ni - at least in INFJs, but I think in most of the Ni-doms I've interacted with and certainly in myself as well - that gives a different flavor than the more rigid and kind of thin/harder feel of Ti. Or from another angle, the Ni metaperspective thing requires being in a state where it's possible to shift fluidly and easily between and among perspectives/angles of perspective and that's different from what I meant by "theorize" (eta2) which is more linear or imposed-upon or something like that.

Argh. Still don't have the words.

It's the difference between Analytic (Ti) and Continental (Ni) philosophy.

The difference between Judgment and Perception.

"Judgment is Perception crystallized." - [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]

Or something like that.

Perhaps Ti is assisting Ni in giving form\structure to what Ni perceived...making it more tangible...

After perspective shifting and analysis, Ni-Ti finally locks on a distinct perspective though...which makes it appear as rigid\stubborn...

...

The answer to that is complicated.

And I usually only share it with women who I'm sleeping with.

Ni-Ti loops require external feedback to break or reinforce...Thanks anyway though...

 

[Zarathustra]

IME, the Ni meta-perspective for sure has something to do with the space one has to be in to engage in that fluid perspective shifting I mentioned in my last comment and that has been discussed elsewhere in relation to Ni. The "sort of hovering above specific perspective" quality for me isn't about hovering over in the big picture versus details sense, it's more about that state of being positioned to shift/move around between and among perspectives that may by themselves act as limiting parameters.

Not sure that wording/description makes sense outside my own head, though. It's clear inside here in the metaphorical visual image sense

No, it makes perfect sense.

That's exactly how I look at it, and have described it in the past.

I actually think I may get that!

I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Werebudgie]

It's an over eagerness to tailor other peoples' responses to fit ones' theory, rather than being really open to questioning or scrapping the theory. When peoples' responses go against what would support ones' theory on the forum, that person can either throw out the 'you're mistyped' card, to continue to maintain their theory, or continue to use the theory to explain other peoples' behaviors/selves, rather like forcing it on them, shifting the other persons' reasons for doing x or y to something supported by their theory. It's done all the time on the forum; wouldn't say it's a strictly Ni thing though. All of it can be done pretty easily since mbti is a pretty loose framework to begin with, everyone just an armchair theorist.

Awesome description IMO. Yes yes yes. I can see this. I struggled with "how is/isn't it well to use cognitive function theory here" even in NiTi looping discussion earlier for this reason. I don't yet know where the line is, but what you describe really can be problematic IMO. *thinking*

 

[Werebudgie]

Ni-Ti loops require external feedback to break or reinforce...Thanks anyway though...

If you're looking for people to help you break out of what you feel as a NiTi loop in yourself, there's a forum that would probably be better for that purpose:

Support and Advice [Members-only] A forum for people to seek advice on personal problems or discuss sensitive issues.

eta: though of course help with personal problems can happen in any thread - but I'm thinking if that's what you need, I suggest that you ask for it upfront with understanding that no one is obligated to provide what you need at that level.

 

[yeghor]

If you're looking for people to help you break out of what you feel as a NiTi loop in yourself, there's a forum that would probably be better for that purpose:

Support and Advice [Members-only] A forum for people to seek advice on personal problems or discuss sensitive issues.

 

[Zarathustra]

Perhaps Ti is assisting Ni in giving form\structure to what Ni perceived...making it more tangible...

After perspective shifting and analysis, Ni-Ti finally locks on a distinct perspective though...which makes it appear as rigid\stubborn...

Ti starts forming definitions, which tend to be overly subjective, and entrap the looper's mind within them.

By contrast, INTJs get entrapped by a feeling or value judgment (Fi).

Ni-Ti loops require external feedback to break or reinforce...Thanks anyway though...

Appealing to my good nature and care for the welfare of others, eh?

Heh, smart move.

Well, here's the thing: there are various versions of it.

What was once a primitive, somewhat unconscious version used to be, "I WANT ALL THE MONEYZ, AND ALL THE WOMYNZ, AND ALL THE POWERZ!"

Now, I'm not saying that lowly, primal, instinct is not still down there.

But I am far more conscious of how much it's there now.

The more refined, elevated version of it, towards which I'd like to strap the energy (libido) from that less noble, more Id-based drive, and help take me to my more noble, more Super-Ego-based drive, would be "I'd like to change the world for the better. To amass the power and resources such that I can make things better for all living beings on Earth."

It gets more specific than that - as in, how I'd like to do it, and what I'd like to do - but that is the generalized version.

Very übermenschlich, as one might imagine.

 

[yeghor]

...

But I am far more conscious of how much it's there now.

The more refined, elevated version of it, towards which I'd like to strap the energy (libido) from that less noble, more Id-based drive, and help take me to my more noble, more Super-Ego-based drive, would be "I'd like to change the world for the better. To amass the power and resources such that I can make things better for all living beings on Earth."

Thanks...

Can't decide if this is more like ENTJ or ENTP...

Will respond more later on...

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[Zarathustra]

...

Okay

 

[Evo]

Our heart's true desire is more about something\someone that we fantasize ourselves as, something\someone that we are not but hope to be one day, something\someone that brings blissful tears to our eyes when we fantasize about it coming true...

It's how we are actually inside...what sleeps within us to hopefully awaken and sprout one day when\if it finds fertile soil...Whatever it is, it's so blissfull that even dreaming about it happening fills us with hope and warmth...

I imagine our normal selves (our type) to be just a protective crust around that inner seed, keeping it safe from external hazards...The seed is where our true desires lie dormant...

It's our raison d'etre...

Well I've never experienced blissful tears...it's really hard to relate to these emotions: warmth and blissful. Sorry.

Anyways, I guest I just want to be accepted and have a sense of belonging. I always attributed me not having those things to inferior Fi.

I guess belonging could possibly relate to Fe....

It feels far fetched to say that my aspirational role is Fe. That's my Devilish role.

Fi is my Aspirational role.

 

[Evo]

Ok, so I repped you this already, but I'm just gunna post it here, because people are clearly getting confused, and the spreading of this kind of misinformation is problematic:

"technically, the shadow type is your anima/animus, or the two inferior functions - what ur talking about is the 'opposite personality' - I used to use the same terminology, but it is wrong"

Thank god someone could clear that up.

 

[yeghor]

Thank god someone could clear that up.

We are running in circles..

Is this twilight zone?

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[yeghor]

The more refined, elevated version of it, towards which I'd like to strap the energy (libido) from that less noble, more Id-based drive, and help take me to my more noble, more Super-Ego-based drive, would be "I'd like to change the world for the better. To amass the power and resources such that I can make things better for all living beings on Earth."

...

Very übermenschlich, as one might imagine.

Based on a quick glance at wiki Ãœbermenschlich sounds more about strengthening of society on a more individiual by individual basis...

A society of superhumans...if you will...

The alternative proposed, the last men, sounds like a more relaxed and dependent version...hence I believe the latter is more about creating some kind strongly connected collective entity (like Gaia, which I also align with) whereas the former sounds to me to be more about a loosely tied society made up of super humans...like that of Khan in Star Trek?

If this is true, you may be more aligned towards ENTJ in terms of your ideal?

To that end please check the animated series Evangelion...It contains similar psychological themes...You'd love it I presume...

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[Zarathustra]

Based on a quick glance at wiki Ãœbermenschlich sounds more about strengthening of society on a more individiual by individual basis...

A society of superhumans...if you will...

The alternative proposed, the last men, sounds like a more relaxed and dependent version...hence I believe the latter is more about creating some kind strongly connected collective entity (like Gaia, which I also align with) whereas the former sounds to me to be more about a loosely tied society made up of super humans...like that of Khan in Star Trek?

If this is true, you may be more aligned towards ENTJ in terms of your ideal?

To that end please check the animated series Evangelion...It contains similar psychological themes...You'd love it I presume...

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Definitely more towards the former.

The latter sounds like some sort of collectivist hive mind, like the Borg, or something, and I do not like.

Neither option expressed fully captures my vision, though.

 

[Zarathustra]

Also, I'm not certain where you're going with this, but I do have the feeling that your methodology is flawed.

 

[yeghor]

Also, I'm not certain where you're going with this, but I do have the feeling that your methodology is flawed.

Based on the "assumption" that your shadow "in the jungian sense" is ENTJ, the theory proposed herein would suggest that your MBTI type is INTP...

Another point to check would be the type of women that turns on your primal instincts, i.e. your anima...

An IxTP would be drawn like a magnet towards Fe-dom women i.e. ExFJs, whereas an INxJ would be drawn towards Se-doms, i.e. ExFPs...

And what I mean by "drawn" is the kind of sexual attraction that makes you drool over...that drives your prinal side i.e. "id" crazy...

Does that mean anima is related to "id" ?

And flawed how?

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