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Thread: Shadow Type

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    How come...?

    They are not unconscious...they are clumsy...underdeveloped...like weak limbs...I tend to rely on my stronger limbs\muscles...but am aware of the weak ones...I notice them being weak when I cannot perform some movements\maneveurs...
    Possibly you have become more conscious of them.

    Often people will not be conscious of how their inferior functions manifest.

    (Think INTJ who thinks he's being completely rational but is actually spewing Fi.)

    (Or an INTP who is completely unaware of how much of an ESFJ he is acting like.)

    In fact, while you might be conscious of some ways in which your inferiors manifest...

    ...you might still be unconscious of other ways in which your inferiors manifest.

    Or perhaps you are not conscious of when they are manifesting in certain ways.

    And, hell, the same could even be said of your dominant and auxiliary.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, I'd already started to gather as much, and, in his last post, he further demonstrated it.

    It's the problem of the NiTi loop.

    It's all self-referential.

    The thinking gets muddled cuz it's too disconnected from external reality.

    The disconnect is apparent from the outside, but from within, well, all they're seeing is from within their own concepts.
    Dang! I was wondering if I was the only one who saw it.

    And I've totally wondered if it's a NiTi loop ... the only problem I've had with that possibility is that yeghor's description of Ni as he understands it is often waaaaay outside of what other Ni-doms describe as that function in our experiences. Specifically, it seems far more Ti than Ni to me, what he describes as "Ni." So it's been kind of confusing for me to think about this as a NiTi loop - but still and all, it could very well be the case IMO. It's just difficult for me to imagine Ti-tert having such a huge effect on Ni-dom - an effect so strong that Ti-tert influence actually seems in some ways to override what Ni is as a perceiving function.

    So anyway, if yeghor actually is displaying examples of NiTi looping, I think it's good cautionary material for other INFJs.* I mean wow, from my vantage point, that would be just awful, to be a perceiving-dominant who is so overtaken by the Ti filters that Ni perception is actually pre-filtered so rigidly and thus distorted and in a strongly self-referential/feedback loop situation. To me it seems like it would be an incredibly suffocating space to be in, like how could a Ni-dom metaphorically breathe in that kind of space?

    *but - and I hate that I have to say this but this site is what it is - IMO this should not be used to discount Ni perception in INFJs as a whole, or used by others in a casual way to disagree with INFJs.

    (also: I'm remembering that I did see my INFP partner caught in a strong FiSi loop once upon a time and from the outside of FiSi, but as someone who loves her, it did seem to have a suffocating quality to it. But again, that was from the outside and the FiSi loop specifics are very different from the NiTi specifics in any case).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Dang! I was wondering if I was the only one who saw it.

    And I've totally wondered if it's a NiTi loop ... the only problem I've had with that possibility is that yeghor's description of Ni as he understands it is often waaaaay outside of what other Ni-doms describe as that function in our experiences. Specifically, it seems far more Ti than Ni to me, what he describes as "Ni." So it's been kind of confusing for me to think about this as a NiTi loop - but still and all, it could very well be the case IMO. It's just difficult for me to imagine Ti-tert having such a huge effect on Ni-dom - an effect so strong that Ti-tert influence actually seems in some ways to override what Ni is as a perceiving function.

    So anyway, if yeghor actually is displaying examples of NiTi looping, I think it's good cautionary material for other INFJs.* I mean wow, from my vantage point, that would be just awful, to be a perceiving-dominant who is so overtaken by the Ti filters that Ni perception is actually pre-filtered so rigidly and thus distorted and in a strongly self-referential/feedback loop situation. To me it seems like it would be an incredibly suffocating space to be in, like how could a Ni-dom metaphorically breathe in that kind of space?

    *but - and I hate that I have to say this but this site is what it is - IMO this should not be used to discount Ni perception in INFJs as a whole, or used by others in a casual way to disagree with INFJs.

    (also: I'm remembering that I did see my INFP partner caught in a strong FiSi loop once upon a time and from the outside of FiSi, but as someone who loves her, it did seem to have a suffocating quality to it. But again, that was from the outside and the FiSi loop specifics are very different from the NiTi specifics in any case).
    Well, I don't know him very well, so it could be something else, too...

    ...including a TiNi loop, which will be same ingredients, but different proportions.

    Also, while each loop has its own characteristics, all loops share some general characteristics...

    Introverted loops are overly self-referential, self-involved, self-absorbed, etc...

    Extroverted loops are overly world-referential, world-involved, world-absorbed.

    Sorry @yeghor, not pretending you're not here.

    This message is for you too.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, I don't know him very well, so it could be something else, including a TiNi loop, which will be same ingredients, but different portions.
    I guess I'd imagine that a Ti-dom in a TiNi loop would be less logically garbled somehow due to easy facility with Ti as the dominant. But I don't really know, the specifics of Ti-Ni looping would be something for an ISTP to address I suppose (assuming all loops are dominant + tert, which maybe they're not always, I don't know). eta: or possibly an INTP if TiSi loops can shed general light on dom/tert looping for Ti-doms.

    eta2: but mostly this is idle curiosity for me and I don't know what the specifics are here.

    Also, while each loop has its own characteristics, all loops share some general characteristics (introverted loops being overly self-referentialń£absorbed, and extroverted loops being overly world-referential/absorbed).
    That makes sense to me. That absorption would explain the "suffocation" that I mention in the 2 different introverted loops.
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 03-21-2014 at 04:46 PM. Reason: additions and ooh a typo

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I suck at using intimidating body language, am non-impulsive, non-spontaneous, have (relatively) weaker physiology, can't deal with high loads of Se (have never been a roller coaster ride to date), non-promiscous, do not seek sensation all the time (as evident herein), suck at dancing...can't remember more atm...

    I am slow at recalling the precise words that I seek, relatively slower to make causal reasoning, walls of text suffocate me...what else Ti does?

    Perhaps as we become adults the 2nd, 3rd and 4th functions slowly move into the conscious part for ego's use and becomes accessible to the self...

    What about those last four functions?

    Dr. Beebe calls those functions "ego-dystonic." That means those functions do not come as easily or naturally to us, and we do not feel "normal" when we use them -- in fact, we feel like we're alien, not ourselves. When we access them, our ego says, "Who was that? That doesn't feel right. That's not like me!"

    As a result, we naturally tend to be more deft and graceful at using our first four functions than our last four functions.

    To take this understanding a step further, we may automatically dislike or reject persons who prefer to use our "ego-dystonic" functions. This results in the ever-popular "personality conflict," without anyone ever doing something provocative. (Sometimes I wonder why God "hard-wired" us for conflict this way, unless it's his master plan for forcing us all to move out of our comfort zones and learn adapting skills.)

    It's useful to note here that the definition of "Type opposite" comes up for grabs with this model. The tendency has been for us to suppose that the opposite of an INFJ is an ESTP because the codes have no letters in common. But the fact is that both codes contain identical preferences for the first four functions, albeit in opposite order. For an INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se, and for an ESTP: Se Ti Fe Ni. See? Same codes, opposite orders. So it's common to see INFJs and ESTPs attracted to one another and getting along famously (many of them married!). According to Dr. John Beebe, it is most difficult for people of the same primary function but opposite attitude to get along, and the greatest personal conflicts arise between persons of opposite genders who have the same dominant function but paired with opposite attitudes. Again for an INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se, and now for NFPs: Ne Fi Te Si -- no matches anywhere! Also with STJs: Si Te Fi Ne -- the same mismatching.

  6. #66
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I guess I'd imagine that a Ti-dom in a TiNi loop would be less logically garbled somehow due to easy facility with Ti as the dominant. But I don't really know, the specifics of Ti-Ni looping would be something for an ISTP to address I suppose (assuming all loops are dominant + tert, which maybe they're not always, I don't know).

    That makes sense to me. That absorption would explain the "suffocation" that I mention in the 2 different introverted loops.
    Because the main part of the theory is coming from Ni with Ti serving as the assistant...

    @Zarathustra whatever I wrote in my original post to the thread was coming from Ni...it was concise...So far, you've been forcing me to use my Ti...hence the longer walls of text....

    Edit: Actually thanks for that, it's good practice for me...but feel free to chime in with your own theories as well...preferably not about me but about the subject...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-21-2014 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Edit

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Because the main part of the theory is coming from Ni with Ti serving as the assistant...
    Ni doesn't theorize. But you aren't able to see that. *waits for wall of text and/or some other garbled thing describing how and why Ni would theorize*

    eta:
    @Zarathustra whatever I wrote in my original post to the thread was coming from Ni...it was concise...So far, you've been forcing me to use my Ti...hence the longer walls of text....So far, you've been forcing me to use my Ti...hence the longer walls of text....
    Interesting shift of responsibility for your own actions/mental state.

  8. #68
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Ni doesn't theorize. But you aren't able to see that. *waits for wall of text and/or some other garbled thing describing how and why Ni would theorize*

    eta:

    Interesting shift of responsibility for your own actions/mental state.
    Actually I was trying to give you guys credit rather than shifting anything

    What ever I theorized in my OP came from Ni gazing within me... i.e. introspection...

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Actually I was trying to give you guys credit rather than shifting anything
    I'd hate to be credited with whatever the you're doing with Ti. I think the credit and responsibility is all yours.

    What ever I theorized in my OP came from Ni gazing within me... i.e. introspection...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Ni doesn't theorize.
    I'd be wary of any such blanket statement.

    Ni metaperspectivizes, and theorizing can certainly come from that.

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