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Thread: Shadow Type

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    In my (limited) experience with ESTJs, ISTJs, ESFPs and ENFPs, I've seen that their style of talking to people feels (to me) like talking down on people in a rather blunt manner...

    I've also come to notice that it evokes in me feelings of being criticized and underestimated...as if the Te user is bragging with his\her knowledge and knowingly or unknowingly putting the other in a position of someone with inferior knowledge\thinking...as if imposing some kind of intellectual superiority over the other...

    It feels instructive, critical, boasting, entitled, infantalizing, restricting, suffocating...

    So, what's your perspective\experience in this regard?

    What do you, Te users, feel when communicating with people thru Te? How does the process and the other person look to you from your perspective?

    Can it have something to do with Ti-tert or Fe-aux...?

    Does Fe voice evoke a similar reaction in Fi users? If yes, how?

    Does Fe sound as if it was morally superior\entitled or something else?
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trickster+function+beebe

    Although, frankly, it sounds almost like you're talking about the critical parent (witch/senex) function here...

    Honestly, tho, none of this stuff is necessarily set-in-stone fact - it's theory, so ymmv

  2. #52
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Based on my post you quoted, I would expect Te to be more instructive than this... It's clearly low in Fe though...

    Anima (male) and Animus (female)

    Because a man's sensitivity must often be repressed, the anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It is said to manifest itself by appearing in dreams. It also influences a man's interactions with women and his attitudes toward them and vice versa for females and the animus. Jung said that "the encounter with the shadow is the 'apprentice-piece' in the individual's development...that with the anima is the 'masterpiece'".[1] Jung viewed the anima process as being one aof the sources of creative ability.

    So apperantly there's clearly a difference between the concept "shadow" and "anima\animus"...Based on the abovegiven description, anima is related to males' relation to females...I, being a Se-inferior, am mesmerized with Se-dom women for instance...Perhaps I am by instinct trying to find a partner that would compensate for my weak side, hence would give me stronger off-spring with better chances of survival...

    Hence I conclude that anima\animus is about the inferior function... Also note the distinction between shadow and anima in the last sentence... The reversal of the normal functions of a type is NOT related to the shadow but the anima... In the case of INFJs for instance the anima type (i.e. the type that INFJs are sexually drawn to) is ESTP...but it is NOT the shadow type for INFJs...as per Jungion nomenclature given above...

    Shadow

    In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative, or (2) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious. There are, however, positive aspects which may also remain hidden in one's shadow (especially in people with low self-esteem).[1] Contrary to a Freudian definition of shadow, therefore, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness, and may be positive or negative. "Everyone carries a shadow," Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."[2] It may be (in part) one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[3] which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind.

    My least desirable aspects (things that I abhor in other people) are selfishness, irresponsibility, hurtfulness etc...I don't identify with those cause they are suppressed inside me... it can manifest in negative or positive form... It was supressed by my conscious self while growing up... The more aware one is about ones' self, the less darker one's shadow becomes...

    According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to psychological projection, in which a perceived personal inferiority is recognised as a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections remain hidden, "The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object--if it has one--or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power." [4] These projections insulate and harm individuals by acting as a constantly thickening veil of illusion between the ego and the real world.

    I perceive selfishness, irresponsibility, amorality, lack of empathy as a personal inferiority (I try to stay away from them) and also project it onto others as a filter to classify them as morally deficient or not wrt that criteria...

    Jung also believed that "in spite of its function as a reservoir for human darkness—or perhaps because of this—the shadow is the seat of creativity.";[7] so that for some, it may be, 'the dark side of his being, his sinister shadow...represents the true spirit of life as against the arid scholar'.[8]

    The last part is a bit confusing but it says I believe that it contains the individual's true spirit of life...didn't get the thing with the "arid scholar"...

    The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically 'appears as a person of the same sex as that of the dreamer'.[9] The shadow's appearance and role depend greatly on the living experience of the individual, because much of the shadow develops in the individual's mind rather than simply being inherited in the collective unconscious. Nevertheless some Jungians maintain that 'The shadow contains, besides the personal shadow, the shadow of society ... fed by the neglected and repressed collective values'.[10]

    So what I deem as the shadow type I believe aligns with this description of shadow...it's our mirror image...so for an INFJ, I believe the shadow is an ENFP...

    Hence the Thread Title Shadow Type...Perhaps I'll add a caveat to the my original post...

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    @yeghor

    Thanks for that post.

    It warrants a more thoughtful post, so, when I get to a computer and have the time, I will make one.

    For the moment being, I'll just note that: 1) I've read all that before; 2) I think the concepts of shadow and anima/animus, for Jung, might have actually reached beyond just type and the cognitive functions; and 3) none of your descriptors about what you suppress (selfishness, irresponsibility, hurtfulness... amorality, lack of empathy) strike me as any more ENFP than they do ESTP (and, frankly, they sound more ESTP to me than ENFP)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    2) I think the concepts of shadow and anima/animus, for Jung, might have actually reached beyond just type and the cognitive functions
    So I'm not doing any sort of fine-grained analysis myself here as I don't have the energy, don't think it is worth it for me, but glad someone else does). However, I'm posting to mention that my guess/sense from skimming this stuff is that the above-quoted comment could well be one of the keys to unlocking at least some of the garbled-ness here. From my perspective: One of the (various) problems I've noticed over and over again with @yeghor's approach is that from what I can see, he uses an (often quite flawed IMO) understanding of type and cognitive functions to analyze pretty much everything related to people and interactions. It seems to function like a lens/filter/hardcore ideological worldview/religious framework or along those lines. It's like there's some kind of feedback loop where the flawed understanding of the concepts plus the use of cognitive functions/type as an overarching worldview/ideology feeds back into itself as information comes in and is sorted and modified to fit into the already existing flawed comprehension, thus creating an ongoing process of skewing/drift/distortion that then incorrectly appears to be supported by the heavily filtered "data" from outside. Which in my view is fine if an individual chooses that approach for themselves, but IMO not useful for other people to take as accurate information.

  5. #55
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah something doesn't add up...

    Perhaps my least desirable aspects are not about the things that I abhor in other people but things I see as a weakness in others (and fear manifesting in myself)...

    What I deem as irresponsibility would actually be non-Ni (i.e. Ne)...and things that I deem as selfishness, amorality (like lying etc.), and lack of empathy would actually be non-Fe (i.e. Fi)...(may also be related indirectly to Ne being incapable of introspection)...

    One could of course associate Ne with being open-minded, carefree and spontaneous; and Fi with self-care, compassion and conviction...My negative portrayal of these I guess stem from my ego's inclination to distance itself from these...and reject them...like devaluing...

    My sescriptions sounded like ESTP to me as well...But the problem in that is that I (the conscious part of my ego) do not "reject" the function Se...It actually yearns for more of it...So my conscious ego identifies with Se as desirable whereas disowns and rejects Ne and Fi for instance...and whatever the latter two encompasses along with them...

    Check the original wording...:

    "In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative, or (2) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious."

    So shadow is not about the conscious part of the ego (i.e. the first 4 functions) but the unconscious part of the ego (i.e. the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th functions) that the conscious part sees as undesirable\weak\bad...

    So my INFJ typing (and the accompanying functions) constitutes the conscious part of my ego whereas my ENFP shadow the unconscious part of it...according to this description...

    What I yearn for in the opposite sex (i.e. Se in my case) constitutes what Jung describes as anima\animus...Se lies within the conscious part of my ego (even though it's inferior) so it cannot be related to the "shadow" as per Jung's description...

    I think this illustrates it better:



    Either way, I observed in myself that I yearn to merge with "another" ESTP but I don't want to act like an ESTP...I yearn to become a protector of people...get into the thick of it and fight for them (as well as my own values)...I've associated that "champion\savior" thing with ENFP...

    So the theory I propose in this thread is about identifying what we yearn for and the using the mirror image of the former's functions to determine our normal type...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    So I'm not doing any sort of fine-grained analysis myself here as I don't have the energy, don't think it is worth it for me, but glad someone else does). However, I'm posting to mention that my guess/sense from skimming this stuff is that the above-quoted comment could well be one of the keys to unlocking at least some of the garbled-ness here. From my perspective: One of the (various) problems I've noticed over and over again with @yeghor's approach is that from what I can see, he uses an (often quite flawed IMO) understanding of type and cognitive functions to analyze pretty much everything related to people and interactions. It seems to function like a lens/filter/hardcore ideological worldview/religious framework or along those lines. It's like there's some kind of feedback loop where the flawed understanding of the concepts plus the use of cognitive functions/type as an overarching worldview/ideology feeds back into itself as information comes in and is sorted and modified to fit into the already existing flawed comprehension, thus creating an ongoing process of skewing/drift/distortion that then incorrectly appears to be supported by the heavily filtered "data" from outside. Which in my view is fine if an individual chooses that approach for themselves, but IMO not useful for other people to take as accurate information.
    Yeah, I'd already started to gather as much, and, in his last post, he further demonstrated it.

    It's the problem of the NiTi loop.

    It's all self-referential.

    The thinking gets muddled cuz it's too disconnected from external reality.

    The disconnect is apparent from the outside, but from within, well, all they're seeing is from within their own concepts.

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    @yeghor the most blatant error in your post above is the supposition that the tertiary and inferior are conscious.

    They are actually, for the most part, and especially to begin with, very much unconscious.

    Even the dominant and auxiliary could be thought of as originally unconscious.

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    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, I'd already started to gather as much, and, in his last post, he further demonstrated it.

    It's the problem of the NiTi loop.

    It's all self-referential.

    The thinking gets muddled cuz it's too disconnected from external reality.

    The disconnect is apparent from the outside, but from within, well, all they're seeing is from within their own concepts.
    I'm still here...

  9. #59
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    @yeghor the most blatant error in your post above is the supposition that the tertiary and inferior are conscious.

    They are actually, for the most part, and especially to begin with, very much unconscious.

    Even the dominant and auxiliary could be thought of as originally unconscious.
    How come...?

    They are not unconscious...they are clumsy...underdeveloped...like weak limbs...I tend to rely on my stronger limbs\muscles...but am aware of the weak ones...I notice them being weak when I cannot perform some movements\maneveurs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trickster+function+beebe

    Although, frankly, it sounds almost like you're talking about the critical parent (witch/senex) function here...

    Honestly, tho, none of this stuff is necessarily set-in-stone fact - it's theory, so ymmv
    Te being my witch\senex (6th function) would imply that I am a Ti-Aux? An introverted one? How is that possible?

    As for INFJs' 6th function Fi:

    Sixth position Witch/Senex: introverted Feeling for the INFJ

    What does this mean? This is the bad mother/father that criticizes, condemns, immobilizes, or demoralizes. It finds fault with everyone, making everyone seem like fakes or untrustworthy. It can be the basis of self-attacks commonly experienced in depression. This archetype is anti-life, since it cripples soul and spirit. The appearance of this function forces one to be creative, to outwit some challenge by finding a way around it.

    What about you? Do you react negatively to introverted Feeling? I know I struggle with it. This is a function that causes me a lot of problems (not least the fact that it's my husband's Tertiary). While I desperately need it to sort out my values and to provide an internal compass, I also consider introverted Feeling "selfish," irrational, and unreasonable at times, better dismissed and ignored.

    At times of depression I feel worthless, inadequate, like a failure...

    How would Te manifest itself as witch\senex?

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