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Thread: Shadow Type

  1. #251
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think the persona (conscious self) tries to hold onto itself as long as it can... and tries to dissipate the external negative energy (stress) thru internal reserves... However once the internal resources deplete, the persona collapses and the resulting energy deficiency (negative energy) is rerouted to power up the backup persona (i.e. shadow self)... and the shadow steals energy back from the external environment so as to allow repowering of the normal persona...

    So it results in not a gradual but a rapid shift in demeanor...

    Do the belowgiven clips showing shadow projected externally feel similar\alien somehow?





    Outbursts of shadow has this effect on us I guess...



    Edit: That means the ring in the LOTR series amplifies one's shadow persona so much that it starts taking over the normal persona permanently...

    I think to be able to gain better command of the reflex we should give shadow persona outlets to express itself positively so that it can get stronger and more adept...thru that we'll be able to gain better control of it...

    And also it would be a good approach to make amends to people whom the shadow lashes at to acquire external energy so that we will not become dependent on the reflex...and become more conscious of it...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-26-2014 at 05:41 AM.

  2. #252
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    In regards to training the shadow persona to make it stronger and gain better command of it...

    I think our positive relationships with people temper our reflexes and refine our rough edges...

    To that end, if ENTPs and INFJs could trust and be true to each other, then the interaction between them would resemble a sparring match... both for their normal and shadow personas... The trick here is to try and reign in ENTPs (id) reflex to lash out to threats and INFJs (superego) reflex to withdraw into himself\herself...

    If there's good faith and synergy between the sides to the relationship, there's great potential for growth in N, F and T departments for both parties...potential that may not be available otherwise...

    In comparison to the synergy between an ESTP and an INFJ, which would theoretically be very volatile since they would keep triggering each other's inferiors, ENTP and INFJ interaction would be more harmonious... they would also develop each other's shadow by assisting each other during down times...

    The trick is to be conscious about the defensive reflex and make amends when they land a strike accidentally...

    I am wondering whether a similar synergy can be formed between ISTPs and INFJs...?

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Do you externally pass moral judgments on people when you are angry with them?

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    In extreme cases, yes. I dig deep into their soul with my words.
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  4. #254
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    In extreme cases, yes. I dig deep into their soul with my words.
    Thanks...

    So how do you think to stop oscillating between shadow and normal persona? My reflex is still there I am afraid... It's better but not yet perfect...

    How to integrate them together and minimize the splitting reflex?

    Edit: I guess disorders like borderline histrionic avoidant and narcissistic personality have something to do with the discrepancy and instability between the shadow and normal personas, causing a too rapid shift between the personas... being too vulnerable to (or dependent on) external feedback...which might distort the integrity of the self, causing it to oscillate inbetween...

  5. #255
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    I've given some more tought on how as infants we may have functioned...

    Let's consider the newborn as a single cell organism with 2 basic modes of action...information gathering and information interpreting...i.e. perceiving and judgment...

    So we are born with a perceiving and a judging function...and the primary/root directive of the organism is to SURVIVE...whereas a secondary directive to REPRODUCE lies dormant until the organism reaches a critical mass/libido/energy...

    So, the organism starts perceiving the external world and starts gathering data about the external objects...and interprets the interalized data thru the judging function...deduces whether the external environment and objects create a predominantly threat or non-threat feeling/identification for itself (which not only depends on the characteristics of the external object but also organism's physiology..ie timidity etc...).

    When it perceives a threat it stops perceiving and starts judging and so forth...and this goes on for some time after which it forms a preference/conditioning in the organism...hence the organism's available energy/power/libido/vitality is diverted in the direction preferred, thus the direction of the perceiving function forms (at what age? Probably in the first 3-4 years)...do they have to have predominantly reverse directions? One interacts with the internal and other interacts with the external world...?

    So the primary/preferred direction of the dominant and auxiliary functions becomes clear around 3-4 years of age...but why some are judging dominant whereas others are perceiving dominant...are perceiving dominants relatively more curious or are judging dominants more action oriented?

    Anyway, our primary judging and perceiving functions I believe depend on our brain and nervous system physiology...the infant has to form a connection with the caregivers (non-hostile entities) around to secure nourishment and protection so as to SURVIVE...but our primary external function (which the infant uses to communicate/interact with external objects as well as gather data) is genetic (i.e. predetermined)... so the infant establishes a connection with the caregiver that speaks the same external language...(Te, Ne, Fe, Se)

    ENTP friend says he didn't talk till he was 3.5 years old...does that mean Ne and Se (externally oriented perceiving) doms are late-talkers? Or is it because he didn't have any other Ne speaker around to interact with? Could that be the reason some infants cannot develop empathy skills? Is it because of this disconnect or inability to identify with primary caregivers? Or is it the other way around? So was he an odd ball?

    In retrospect, I guess I was mistaken in some aspects...I was doing what I can do establish connection and cease hostilities with my primary caregivers as an infant...some kind of adaptation/negotiation...so I guess I've easily established connection with mother's normal ISFJ persona to secure nourishment...but there was a disconnect with ISTJ father...mother spoke Fe but father neither spoke Fe nor Ni...so I tried too hard to integrate Te to the stock so as to secure emotional nourishment from father...and it created a rift in the psyche...necessisated to access my shadow? Hence the ENFP shadow? Or father subconsciously reinfercod the message that he admires ESTP qualities in men hence I tried to be one and the closest possible configuration was ENFP? Would I have tried rejecting the projected image if I had been a T-dom or an ST? Does the gender of the child and the parent casting the shadow have an extra role in this?

    I was emotionally hysterical as a kid and prone to lashing out...that gradually changed till 20s...I've withdrawn inside from that point on...Damn, dad was overly critical and not forthcoming with praise on things he didn't identify with...I believe the presence of such a strong shadow in him projected onto me implies that he wasn't happy with himself and his achievements... So a strong shadow is a sign of failed hopes and desires, that we may try to make up for thru our children by seeing them as an extension of ourselves...but that's like trying to solve an internally caused unhapiness thru external means...and in the process, we suffocate our children by demanding them to perform roles they are not naturally suited to...so that's what daddy/mommy issues feel like...?

    Anyway, I think ENFP template required a strong and admirable body to be able to sustain/reinforce the image, qualities that I didn't have...

    Hence the persona I desired collapsed and imploded on itself...hence the current INFJ persona with a desire to be an ENFP...so how to nourish the ENFP side?

    More to come hopefully on relation of tertiary and inferior to the secondary directive to REPRODUCE...

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  6. #256
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    Wow, that's a very interesting post @yeghor. I wonder how much truth there is to this in formation of the personality.

    I am sure I easily bonded with my mother, she and I both being FP, but I remember even as a small child being able to sense very slight almost imperceptible shifts of mood in my grandfather because of his tertiary Fi. In fact when I was older, like eighteen, twenty, he would want me to come and just be in the house with him, like quiet reading separately, our sort of silent Fi understanding. I remember having deep empathy for his sadness even if he didn't cry. But the fact that he had Si/Te in his dom/aux day to day way of being, I created this unfortunate relationship to Te that made me feel like I had to perform or accomplish to connect with him more frequently. Since Te is a lesser function for me, I think amping it up that way created some weird weird issues I carried into adulthood. People tell me a lot on forums about.my Te, but strangely I don't see Te at all in my jumbled sock drawer or on my messy desk.

    *I also want to mention again my narrative is odd because my father and I didn't know each other well, my parents divorced when I was a baby, so I lived with my mom and grandparents. Then eventually just my grandparents. My grandmother died. I chose my grandfather over my mother. I wasn't forced to stay with him. I hated my mom's second husband, hated their gross life together, hated his contempt for me being another man's child, so I chose the stability of my stand in father figure, and then he remarried and I had a step grandmother.

  7. #257
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Wow, that's a very interesting post @yeghor. I wonder how much truth there is to this in formation of the personality.

    I am sure I easily bonded with my mother, she and I both being FP, but I remember even as a small child being able to sense very slight almost imperceptible shifts of mood in my grandfather because of his tertiary Fi. In fact when I was older, like eighteen, twenty, he would want me to come and just be in the house with him, like quiet reading separately, our sort of silent Fi understanding. I remember having deep empathy for his sadness even if he didn't cry. But the fact that he had Si/Te in his dom/aux day to day way of being, I created this unfortunate relationship to Te that made me feel like I had to perform or accomplish to connect with him more frequently. Since Te is a lesser function for me, I think amping it up that way created some weird weird issues I carried into adulthood. People tell me a lot on forums about.my Te, but strangely I don't see Te at all in my jumbled sock drawer or on my messy desk.
    "Messy desk" is a stereotype.
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  8. #258
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Wow, that's a very interesting post @yeghor. I wonder how much truth there is to this in formation of the personality.

    I am sure I easily bonded with my mother, she and I both being FP, but I remember even as a small child being able to sense very slight almost imperceptible shifts of mood in my grandfather because of his tertiary Fi. In fact when I was older, like eighteen, twenty, he would want me to come and just be in the house with him, like quiet reading separately, our sort of silent Fi understanding. I remember having deep empathy for his sadness even if he didn't cry. But the fact that he had Si/Te in his dom/aux day to day way of being, I created this unfortunate relationship to Te that made me feel like I had to perform or accomplish to connect with him more frequently. Since Te is a lesser function for me, I think amping it up that way created some weird weird issues I carried into adulthood. People tell me a lot on forums about.my Te, but strangely I don't see Te at all in my jumbled sock drawer or on my messy desk.
    Yeah father measures success material-wise too...he cannot be proud of me unless my achievements fit with his criteria of desirable things, and even when they fit, he keeps measuring them against people he knows to have made similar achievements so it's never enough for him... I've felt like a prized racing horse sometimes...

    Edit: I think he desired me to be an achiever...and it wasn't 100% negative...

    What kind of weird Te issues?

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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Yeah father measures success material-wise too...he cannot be proud of me unless my achievements fit with his criteria of desirable things, and even when they fit, he keeps measuring them against people he knows to have made similar achievements so it's never enough for him... I've felt like a prized racing horse sometimes...

    Edit: I think he desired me to be an achiever...and it wasn't 100% negative...

    What kind of weird Te issues?

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    I was naturally inclined to things that amused my grandfather when I was small. Singing and dancing, I even apparently followed him around when I was two, and when he said dammit because he hammered his thumb in the tool shed, I screamed dammit too. He taught me to read, and I fortunately responded to his attempts to teach me about history, geography and politics. His sister's husband was a local politician, so I naturally absorbed all of it quite happily, and it shows in my interests as an adult. My grandfather had a similar fondness for my ESFP mother. He favored her over my aunt and uncle, apparently. Just like with her he showered me with gifts and nice dresses, but as I grew, he was dismayed I didn't share his interest or aptitude even slightly in math. I also eventually proved silly, hard to control, and full of rebellion by middle school. He had hoped for a serious church mouse who would play piano for him and be the kind to stay at home and be cautious and sensible...but I wasn't. And eventually the only way to get his attention or praise was if protected or defended me in some way, or if I achieved something. I know he always loved me, he took me clothes shopping even when I was 25, but after puberty I felt I was a constant disappointment to him, that he thought I was smart but not using it the way he wanted. He wanted me to join the Air Force at eighteen and I said no way. But then I even went to the recruiting office but drove home crying, I just couldn't do it.

    Now he's dead, and only too late did I realize I should have said thank you. A young father would still be alive for me to thank in my maturity. My grandfather died in my twenties before I had matured to the point when people realize how much they actually appreciate their parents (or grandfather in my case). So my mom reaps the benefits of having that, but since I can't give my grandfather that, it's like I still want to succeed for him. Maybe?

    Weird Te like it's not my main strength, I think I have been in the grip of inferior Te maybe more than some people, and it makes me...UNPLEASANT.

    I should add here that I felt constantly underestimated belittled and condescended to after about the age of fifteen or sixteen. Like he would buy me things but tell me I was good at the wrong things, it was verbal abuse.

    Since nothing I did was quite good enough after that point, I just decided I would rather not have any of his money and be free of his bullshit.

  10. #260
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Let's consider the newborn as a single cell organism with 2 basic modes of action...information gathering and information interpreting...i.e. perceiving and judgment...
    Then how come my perceiving function's predominant direction is inwards?

    So both perceiving and judging functions can be used to gather information and interpret gathered data?

    Then why the need for a distinction like perceiving and judging...

    I was mistaken in saying information receiving = perceiving function, and information interpretation= judging function...

    IMO, internally directed functions are our data analysis and interpretation functions whereas our external functions are our informatiın gathering functions as well as the external interaction data layers that we are predominantly attuned to... the external functions denote the content of the data that we internalize from the exterbal world..

    If we are born with 2 conscious/active functions, then do we rather externalize the one that we most interact with externally? That is to say, the one that is spoken by our primary caregiver? What if the infant's dom and aux do not overlap with those of the caregivers? Disconnect?

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