Shadow Type

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION], It didn't "ping your radar" because yeghor is attempting to imitate an INFJ, thus attempting to sweep Fi-Ne or Ne-Fi under the rug or attempting to attune Ne to the caricature of the INFJ.

Do I do that knowingly or unknowingly?

And what is Tony Stark's type?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Possible. In the past, I've only seen INTPs do that (hardcore imitating INFJ as their type) using Ti. I agree that there's a caricature feel to yeghor's self presentation, that fits with my "is this satirical performance art?" thing.

But I still can't yet get my head around: how on earth would Fi-Ne or Ne-Fi yield the kind of weird stuff we're seeing here? (I know that may be a stupid question, I just can't seem to get a bead on this yet)

Fi doesn't rely on logical consistency. Ti would be neater, more logically apt, and categorized systematically.

 

[Werebudgie]

Fi doesn't rely on logical consistency. Ti would be neater, more logically apt, and categorized systematically.

I do agree that Ti, in the dominant position, would probably be "neater, more logically apt, and categorized systematically." I've had that thought more than once as that's what I've seen with the Ti-doms pretending to be INFJs in the past.

But by the same token, Fi, in the dominant position, isn't so scattered either. In my experience ith my partner, when Te-inf feeds Fi-dom, it's much more linear and constrictive than what yeghor does with "logic" and argument. Now, you're saying that yeghor is trying to imitate an INFJ, so ... it's just, I understand INFPs sometimes mistype as INFJs, but I don't assume that's the same thing as someone trying to present themselves as INFJ to others. It just seems to me like Fi in the dominant position wouldn't allow such bullshit when it comes to presentation of the self.

I'm still finding this mysterious. eta: And really, I keep having the sense that there's some crucial missing piece(s) outside of MBTI/cognitive function dynamics.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I do agree that Ti, in the dominant position, would probably be "neater, more logically apt, and categorized systematically." I've had that thought more than once as that's what I've seen with the Ti-doms pretending to be INFJs in the past.

But by the same token, Fi, in the dominant position, isn't so scattered either. In my experience ith my partner, when Te-inf feeds Fi-dom, it's much more linear and constrictive than what yeghor does with "logic" and argument. Now, you're saying that yeghor is trying to imitate an INFJ, so ... it's just, I understand INFPs sometimes mistype as INFJs, but I don't assume that's the same thing as someone trying to present themselves as INFJ to others. It just seems to me like Fi in the dominant position wouldn't allow such bullshit when it comes to presentation of the self.

I'm still finding this mysterious.

This boils down to the fact that the Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne mechanism being utilized here is in a defensive posture; it is attempting to preserve its own view that it is an INFJ by building the ego's own understanding of the entire system around the fact that the individual is an INFJ, a reference point that is objectively off-center from an exterior view but in-center from an interior view. Thus, what you see here is the byproduct of this self-delusion along with the explosive Ne that is attempting to specify every possibility into a framework being fine-tuned by Fi, which is perpetuating the self-delusion by understanding things in relation to the off-center point.

I had initially typed [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] as ENFP as well, I postulated INFP after he/she began avoiding my citation of evidence for xNFP, an avoidance that is indicative of a negatively expressed Te inferior.

 

[yeghor]

...Another metaphor that's come up for me about how yeghor deals with information is a funnel cloud like in a tornado. The cloud hungrily (in this case, actually kind of desperately) sucks people's energy and information into itself, crudely reduces everything it sucks in into tiny pieces of debris, and spits the debris out several miles away from where it started (for clarity: I don't know if that's exactly how real funnel clouds work, it's just a metaphor for me, using funnel cloud as an anchor to put words to an inner dynamic image).

Like a black hole, devouring things?

Like this?

 

[Werebudgie]

This boils down to the fact that the Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne mechanism being utilized here is in a defensive posture; it is attempting preserve its own view that it is an INFJ by building the ego's own understanding of the entire system around the fact that the individual is an INFJ, a reference point that is objectively off-center from an exterior view but in-center from an interior view. Thus, what you see here is the byproduct of this self-delusion along with the explosive Ne that is attempting to specify every possibility into a framework being fine-tuned by Fi, which is perpetuating the self-delusion by understanding things in relation to the off-center point.

Well, the bolded part seems to link to something that came up an exchange I had with yeghor in another thread in a comment in which he was addressing me (I'm bolding the parts that are most directly linked and underlining the piece at the core, as related to this discussion now):

You' ve been irritated with others a few times before when they assumed ownership of your thoughts or distorted/misinterpreted them...I think you are possessive of your thoughts and ideas...they are your prized possessions...your craft...and how you value your self worth...

And the way you've dealt with those occassions felt alien too me...in comparison, it felt to me as if you had disengaged too easily and without too much remorse...Even though I aspire to be able to set boundaries like that in future it feels somehow wrong to me at the moment...I cannot identify with...You are my senior but I still cannot see myself acting that way in future...

And the temper thing and Se focus etc...All those accumulating data keeps raising this question in me..."If she's an INFJ, then what the hell am I?" I now fear someone will come along and ascribe this to my desire to be unique but it's not...

So long story short, I think you are a Ti-dom with a vey well developed Ni...that's why you are sensitive about your ideas, thoughts...they are your prized possessions...just like how a Fi-dom takes pride in his/her feelings...and dislikes it when others misinterpret their feelings or try to dictate them what to think feel...

Your focus on Se domain I believe stems from your Se-aux and irritation with human social constructs from your Fe-inf...It may also explain how you are able to disengage without too much qualms, and perhaps the temper I sense in you...

I've enjoyed sharing my thoughts with you WB...thanks for that..I'll continue responding where I deem necessary whether you respond back or not...I don't want this to be misconstrued as harassment or something...

All in all, I believe you are an ISTP with a well developed Ni...and also just another human being trying to find her way in the world...

But [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] - what would yield such a need for this type-related self-delusion/identity (or whatever it is) in the first place? That's tugging at me. I continue to get the feeling that it's not sourced to MBTI/cognitive function even if it's using cognitive functions in its processing and expression.

I'm still not sure about the INFP thing, but that may be primarily or only because I really feel that there are missing pieces here that I don't grasp (meaning, the source of the self-delusion and need for self-delusion - and I don't think being an INFJ is the core need, in this self-delusion, or if it is, it means something internally that I don't quite grasp right now)

 

[Werebudgie]

Like a black hole, devouring things?

Like this?

No.

 

[Zarathustra]

Watching you three is funny.

I don't know if I have an analog to any other similar such occurrence in this forum's history.

Maybe a little bit like Savage Idealist, Elfboy, and The Great One, or something...

But far less annoying...

(I guess it's the Ni vs Ne levels)

(This one is more focused)

(Those motherfuckers were just all over the place)

(They were so bad I couldn't even watch their clusterfucks)

 

[EcK]

To Ti perhaps...?

To everything. Perspectives i give are also simply meant to be functional on a higher/lower(depending on your perspective again) level as to allow creation and comparison/matching of different systems and find useful cross systemic patterns

 

[1487610420]

Here we go... These women look sexually appealing to me....What type are they?

OLDR

 

[1487610420]

This boils down to the fact that the Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne mechanism being utilized here is in a defensive posture; it is attempting to preserve its own view that it is an INFJ by building the ego's own understanding of the entire system around the fact that the individual is an INFJ, a reference point that is objectively off-center from an exterior view but in-center from an interior view. Thus, what you see here is the byproduct of this self-delusion along with the explosive Ne that is attempting to specify every possibility into a framework being fine-tuned by Fi, which is perpetuating the self-delusion by understanding things in relation to the off-center point.

I had initially typed [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] as ENFP as well, I postulated INFP after he/she began avoiding my citation of evidence for xNFP, an avoidance that is indicative of a negatively expressed Te inferior.

Solution: http://chess.com

 

[Werebudgie]

Okay, per the discussion about INFP/self-delusion/type etc, I just had a brief discussion with my partner about this and thought some more about it, and am going to try to articulate what I now think is going on. While I don't know if I'm right, I do know that for me, this perspective seems to dissolve the mystery/WTFWTFWTF aspect of the situation with [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]:

So, first, to re-quote this:

This boils down to the fact that the Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne mechanism being utilized here is in a defensive posture; it is attempting to preserve its own view that it is an INFJ by building the ego's own understanding of the entire system around the fact that the individual is an INFJ, a reference point that is objectively off-center from an exterior view but in-center from an interior view. Thus, what you see here is the byproduct of this self-delusion along with the explosive Ne that is attempting to specify every possibility into a framework being fine-tuned by Fi, which is perpetuating the self-delusion by understanding things in relation to the off-center point.

and then part of my reply was:

...what would yield such a need for this type-related self-delusion/identity (or whatever it is) in the first place? That's tugging at me. I continue to get the feeling that it's not sourced to MBTI/cognitive function even if it's using cognitive functions in its processing and expression.

I'm still not sure about the INFP thing, but that may be primarily or only because I really feel that there are missing pieces here that I don't grasp (meaning, the source of the self-delusion and need for self-delusion - and I don't think being an INFJ is the core need, in this self-delusion, or if it is, it means something internally that I don't quite grasp right now)

This is what I now think (or at least strongly suspect) is going on here:

[mod edit: removed armchair psychoanalysis that goes too far and is a bit insensitive]

Though I'm not sure I'm describing this right. I can see the shape of this pretty clearly in my own head, but as often happens with me, I don't know if my description in words is going to make sense.

One other note: I have no idea what yeghor's MBTI type is, because from my perspective, his type is not core to what's going on here. That isn't to say that others are wrong (or not) in their assessments. Just that for me, whatever flavor I'm picking up is not about his type at all - it's about whatever all his garbled type talk is trying to mask.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION]

Interesting conclusion, but I have lost all ability to care for anything related to this thread. Just as long as something close to the truth has been posted at some point during this thread is good enough for me, I guess.

 

[Werebudgie]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION]

Interesting conclusion, but I have lost all ability to care for anything related to this thread. Just as long as something close to the truth has been posted at some point during this thread is good enough for me, I guess.

I really don't blame you for losing all ability to care for anything related to this thread!

 

[yeghor]

People, this is not an invitation to make fun of what I share here, or a cue for people to degrade me...

So please do contribute in good faith if you have similar personal experience but please refrain from making insensitive remarks, referring to me in 3rd person, or revelling in the perceived fact that I am somehow mentally unwell or sick...

OK here's what occurred to me...

I've been relatively like this till 10 or so...figuratively of course...

However this persona (conscious self or external self) was not well received outside of the family environment and I think it has something to do with my socity's male culture being predominantly geared towards xSTPs...

The persona was not well received inside the family after some time as well, particularly after adolescence I gues... It didn't receive enough positive affirmation and reinforcement...Something to do with my father being an ISTJ perhaps...

My family members tell me that I was very a naught kid when I was little...then anxious, angry etc.. during my teens...I think my ENFP persona was trying to remain conscious and acting out during those times...but libido could not maintain it so it gradually get diverted inside...Then something else took over gradually... ENFP could not manage to exist in real life so it hid inside, it's skin started becoming tougher...it went into sleep and a protective layer formed around it...like a cocoon...an autopilot...

That layer is INFJ I believe...in the process, I've developed an overprotective, harsh critic\guardian...I equate it with INFJ...And the core, which could not sustain itself, is lying dormant inside...well has been...but it's starting to get more conscious...it wants to assert itself more...Now I am trying to reconcile the outer INFJ layer with the inner ENFP core...

Something like a shake hands protocol?

The process may have been the same for ENTPs or others... ENTPs inner INTJ core may not have been reinforced by external elements to exist IRL so it may have gradually migrated inwards and a protective ENTP layer may have formed around it...

So ENTPs were not allowed to be nerds in their respective environment whereas INFJs were not allowed to be energetic fuzzballs in theirs?

Then ENTPs' overactive id and INFJs' overactive superego are both guardians and tormentors assigned by the psyche to protect and perhaps berate the (true) ego...?

How to make the true ego take over again...?

Does it have something to do externally xSTx dominant environments that do not nurture NFs or NTs?

Jung mentioned something about people with low self esteem having a greater potential to notice their shadow etc...perhaps this is the reason why...

People please do chime in with your experiences but do not make this an issue for personal self-gratification...

 

[yeghor]

Figuratively, what I hope to achieve one day looks like this:

Edit: I hope to grow into the armor\guardian...

 

[yeghor]

So does this mean the absence of an overactive id or superego implies that the true self or ego have been allowed to exist\manifest itself in the external environment...resulting in a well developed (and sometimes perhaps overdeveloped) ego...such as in the case of IxxPs and perhaps ExxJs?

Edit: In the former case, are we looking for other people who will allow our "true" selves to come out without fear...?

 

[yeghor]

Sorry couldn't find any better video but the ENTP version may look like this perhaps?

 

[yeghor]

OK here's what occurred to me...

I've been relatively like this till 10 or so...figuratively of course...

However this persona (conscious self or external self) was not well received outside of the family environment and I think it has something to do with my socity's male culture being predominantly geared towards xSTPs...

The persona was not well received inside the family after some time as well, particularly after adolescence I gues... It didn't receive enough positive affirmation and reinforcement...Something to do with my father being an ISTJ perhaps...

My family members tell me that I was very a naught kid when I was little...then anxious, angry etc.. during my teens...I think my ENFP persona was trying to remain conscious and acting out during those times...but libido could not maintain it so it gradually get diverted inside...Then something else took over gradually... ENFP could not manage to exist in real life so it hid inside, it's skin started becoming tougher...it went into sleep and a protective layer formed around it...like a cocoon...an autopilot...

That layer is INFJ I believe...in the process, I've developed an overprotective, harsh critic\guardian...I equate it with INFJ...And the core, which could not sustain itself, is lying dormant inside...well has been...but it's starting to get more conscious...it wants to assert itself more...Now I am trying to reconcile the outer INFJ layer with the inner ENFP core...

Having thought more on it, this is how I think it may actually be...

We are born into our middle 2 functions in the MBTI representation (or our first 2 functions in the stack, i.e. dominant and auxiliary)...

I, as NF, for instance... So NF component is genetic whereas The I\E and J\P spectrum is our reaction to the external world...hence it is dependent on the external world and is shaped by our reaction to it while growing up...

My ISTJ father and my ISFJ mother unconsciously projected their desired personas (i.e. shadow) onto me while growing up...I as a child instinctively tried to appease my parents\caregivers so as to secure (mental\emotional\physical) nourishment from them (there may be another archaic archetype mechanism behind this)...

So I figure, I've instinctively noticed (or through trial error found out) that the best way to secure it was trying to act like the projected ideal of father's ESTP shadow and mother's ESFP shadow (I guess that was the ideal person they wanted to be in their minds)... Their shadows were very active I guess cause they were not that happy in life...SO till my 20s I've tried to match their ideal of ESxP...but being an NF at the core...the act become one that of ENFP...

This may be related to the golden child\scapegoat syndrome I've mentioned in another thread earlier...Some children try to secure nourishment whereas some rebel against it...That is to say some children embrace\capitulate to the parents' shadow(s) whereas some resist\reject them... I am unsure how it relates to the parents' core type and the children's core type at the moment...

Anyway, The act was able to sustain itself within the family environment but when it was exposed to other collectives like school, friends, outsiders etc. it started receiving negative feedback and eventually "I" (in body and mind) couldn't keep the act up and it collapsed...You can fool yourself but you cannot fool the world, the world tests the persona (the facade, the externally projected image)...So, I couldn't fill in the role...If I had been strong\aggressive enough at the core to seek out external energy to keep it up and insist on continuing the act, I guess I would've developed narcissistic personality disorder or something like that...perhaps I was one once...

As a sidenote, perhaps the problem in lying to one's self and insisting on the false persona (projected image) is that it cannot be sustained internally hence it requires one to seek out and steal external energy\libido from others and force others in the vicinity to scripts\roles so as to keep up the act and the illusion...That's how some people become so-called "energy vampires" or so I guess...(Is this an Sx tendency?)

So I've decided to abandon the act in my 20s...which put me through a period of feeling lost till my mid 20s I guess... During the course of that period (which was not fun) I've gradually become more like an INFJ...and I guess I've developed all kinds of problems like avoidant personality disorder, anxiety or the likes...I've fallen into a pit\depression (negative personal image), which allowed my then unconscious INFJ-shadow to come to the forefront I guess...

And that somehow made me vulnerable to people who would project a positive (or negative) self image of it onto me...hence the codependency...? (And the whole process reminds of a pendulum...once the pendulum stops moving will I have found balance and peace?)

Anyway, I guess my body and brain physiology was more suited towards INFJ to begin with... It's just I was unconsciously\instinctively trying to become someone (an ENFP) I was ill suited (at that time) to be... So I've had to abandon\abort the ENFP design (that I've invested in [libido\vital energy] for 20 years...) as a lost cause and started working on and becoming more comfortable with my naturally inclined version of NF, i.e. INFJ...

I didn't have the mental and bodily physiology to be an E and a P I guess...cause I was fearful\timid\gentle in nature...I wasn't built for combat\aggression...

It may have something to do with my core [NF] type...Perhaps N/S spectrum represents robust mind/robust body hence Ns are more inclined towards introversion...?

Whereas F/T spectrum may represent (in)dependency of others... So Fs are more inclined to be Js whereas Ts are more inclined to become Ps...

Of course all the abovegiven is the result of how our bodies are built (strong, fragile etc) and react to external stimuli..., and not a cause of our core type...i.e. it's the other way around...Perhaps female NFs have more chance towards extraversion and P-ness than their male counterparts due to external factors being more lenient towards them in that regard...This of course doesn't explain the presence of male ENFxs...There has to be more factors at play in this...

Are N and F functions more feminine whereas S and T functions more masculine in nature...So do presence of NF in a male body and ST in a female body create an internal turmoil?

So I guess the INFJ persona has reached a critical mass and now become confident in itself enough to start noticing the abandoned template, and there's now a surplus of internal energy\libido, which has started to power up the abandoned ENFP template, which has started to manifest more in the conscious self...?

Does this mean I've now 2 mouths to feed?

And is trying to reconcile with the shadow (abandoned or not) so as to get ambidextrous in our core template (such as NF in me) the way to a more rounded (and hopefully more at peace) personality...?

Is that the way to prevent projecting our abandoned hopes and desires onto our own children, which may suffocate them and create an inner turmoil in them? And hopefull becoming relatively less judgmental? (An Ãœber-NF in my case?)

 

[yeghor]

And the problem of my Achille's heel, i.e. my inferior Se still remains...