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Thread: Shadow Type

  1. #111
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, so I repped you this already, but I'm just gunna post it here, because people are clearly getting confused, and the spreading of this kind of misinformation is problematic:

    "technically, the shadow type is your anima/animus, or the two inferior functions - what ur talking about is the 'opposite personality' - I used to use the same terminology, but it is wrong"
    Yes, I see now that what I (and Jung I believe) refer to as shadow is primarily connected to the 5th function...apperantly it's called opposing personality in some nomenclature...

    Anima/animus may be connected to the 3rd and 4th functions as you mentioned...

    I now believe however that I was wrong in assuming that anima/animus was related to id for all types...

    How does an ESxP feel I wonder when he/she recognizes Ni in the opposite sex?

    Do the feelings experienced vary depending on the type of inferior function when one notices soneone of the opposite sex who is dominant in their inferior function?

    That is to say just as INxJs' id comes to the forefront in such cases, does superego comes to the forefront for ESTPs in the case of Ni? Does that mean they become more fearful/timid (or passive) in such instances?

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  2. #112
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    @yeghor This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Possibly you have become more conscious of them.

    Often people will not be conscious of how their inferior functions manifest.

    (Think INTJ who thinks he's being completely rational but is actually spewing Fi.)

    (Or an INTP who is completely unaware of how much of an ESFJ he is acting like.)

    In fact, while you might be conscious of some ways in which your inferiors manifest...

    ...you might still be unconscious of other ways in which your inferiors manifest.

    Or perhaps you are not conscious of when they are manifesting in certain ways.

    And, hell, the same could even be said of your dominant and auxiliary.

    And to add to it..

    The whole idea of being conscious or unconscious about a thing is whether or not that thing has been differentiated from other stuff that goes on in your unconscious mind.

    Unconscious mind is a realm in which things are easily associated with other stuff and the whole system(human brains) works by this thing what jung called libido(which is pretty much the same as the idea of action potential in modern neuroscience). The unconscious mind can be separated into two system that are linked together. Jung called these systems 'personal unconscious' and 'collective unconscious'. Collective unconscious is basically what you have coded in your genes, some jungians extend the idea of collective unconscious to even body(like growing 5 fingers in each hand instead of 9 in one hand and 2 in other hand), others just limit it to psychology and archetypes which are the psychic manifestations of different structures of collective unconscious. The way in which personal unconscious is linked to collective unconscious is that the structures of personal unconscious(these are what jung called complexes) are built over the structures of collective unconscious(there is an archetype behind every complex, but one complex might be connected to many archetypal themes, there are many complexes built over single archetype and one complex might make new associations between other complexes with different archetypal base).

    The idea of complex is quite important in all of it and the way that a complex is defined, is quite different that the problems that complexes can potentially create to a person(which is the side of complexes more known to general public). Complex is defined as "clusters of feeling toned association around a common theme". This "feeling toned" doesent mean that it has something to do with F function judgments(which are judgments of worth), but is more about "gut feeling" type of stuff and emotional associations to the complex. Not all complexes are harmful and we need complexes in order to function. One example of a complex would be money. Money to you has all sorts of unconscious associations around it and without them you wouldnt be able to understand money. For example to you(and t most people) money is not equal to paper, or metal, neither is it only a way to get stuff for an exchange, you associate stuff like getting your first work and first salary and your daddy not buying something to you, but you had to work for it some way or another, except sometimes it was given to you for the goodness of your father, you also heard that he had to use money to get that new bike for you, all these stuff is associated to money, not everything all the time at the same time. This cluster of associations is the complex of money, but what does the money complex stand upon? Well we have these instinctual urges that are coded in our genes like the need for seeking pleasure etc.

    Now when it comes to libido, in order for something to be conscious, there must be suitable networks of associations or/and strong enough stream of libido to get to consciousness and through ego blocks. The thing with complexes is that they block the energy flow of libido, kinda like guides it towards the unconscious and if there are lots of complexes over something, its hard for us to process it rationally(i.e. consciously) as the emotions and gut feelings created by complexes take the lead. Archetypes closely associated to complexes make this effect of acting through the unconscious even stronger and hence the activation of an archetypes has so strong effect in us.

    Now when it comes to functions and archetypes, many jungians(for example marie von franz who was most likely the closest associate of jung in analytical psychology circles) has argued that archetypes manifest through the inferior function the most. It makes perfect sense(inferior being the most unconscious functions and thus being most tied to complexes and archetypes and having more associations to that direction instead of being connected to ego, or more precisely to its cognitive side) and i can see it working in people. Now the important thing to understand is that a function is not some one thing, functions are ways of perceiving and processing information and someone might had been differentiated thinking in some task, but not on something else.

    When it comes to extraversion and introversion of a function there is one important thing to understand. Functions are T S F and N and those functions gets objective and subjective influences all the time. Whether one is an Ti or Te user is about whether the persons thinking function is more influenced by the objective standards(like sense perceptions and professionals in their field etc) or the subjective standards(reasoning, memories, archetypal themes etc). We all are influenced by both, but we learn to trust more on one of the sources and thus habitually rely on that source. This is what introversion and extraversion of a type is. So an ENTJ and INTP are both T N S F types, but an ENTJ trusts more on the objective standards when it comes to thinking and an INTP trusts more on the subjective standards when it comes to thinking. This doesent mean that an ENTJ couldnt sometimes to use more of the subjective realm, but their thinking is geared towards processing using the very different standards of the external world than the standards of internal world. If they do rely on the subjective, they are more comfortable doing it by using intuition and have trained that side in them if they arent really immature or young. Like me here a Ti dom am referring a lot to professionals of the field of analytical psychology, this must scream Te to you, right? But its not, even tho the outcome of putting trust to a professional is the same that an Te user would more naturally do. This is because this issue at hand is such that it would be stupid in my opinion to put trust in someone whos ideas are both against what more credible professionals say about it and against what i have experienced in myself and others.
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  3. #113
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    eta: whoa, I just read the stuff after those comments. NiTi looping perhaps, but more and more I'm thinking that this has got to be satirical performance art.
    Werebudgie, Does this Ni-Ti loop thing and my stubbornness that I exhibited herein remind you of anyone?

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  4. #114
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Yes, I see now that what I (and Jung I believe) refer to as shadow is primarily connected to the 5th function...apperantly it's called opposing personality in some nomenclature...

    Anima/animus may be connected to the 3rd and 4th functions as you mentioned...

    I now believe however that I was wrong in assuming that anima/animus was related to id for all types...

    How does an ESxP feel I wonder when he/she recognizes Ni in the opposite sex?

    Do the feelings experienced vary depending on the type of inferior function when one notices soneone of the opposite sex who is dominant in their inferior function?

    That is to say just as INxJs' id comes to the forefront in such cases, does superego comes to the forefront for ESTPs in the case of Ni? Does that mean they become more fearful/timid in such instances?

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    Yeah, the Opposing Personality Complex differs from what people have coined "The Shadow" even though "The Shadow" doesn't reflect the true shadow processes. The difference lies in the fact that the Opp. Per. Complex (to be further denoted as the Anti-Hero) is situated entirely in the unconscious and is uncontrollable, alien even, while the inferior function (the Anima/Animus) is the gateway to the unconscious (and is thus still consciously controllable, but highly unpredictable and unstable). Whereas there is conscious control exhibited over the inferior though it might seem otherworldly and a juxtaposition to the Hero (dominant), the shadow processes are usually more sinister due to the fact that they have been outcast from the regular processes.

    An Ni hero, for instance, has an Ne anti-hero that always lurks in the back of their mind and casts doubts to make them wary of their own hero (what makes them who they are). For instance, when Ni builds a possibility time-line, Ne would be the nagging, somewhat dubious voice in the back of our head that says "You aren't taking into account if this happens, this happens, or maybe even this", making us doubt the timeline created by Ni.

    The Se Anima/Animus when expressed negatively, however, makes the INxJ hyper-fact oriented, exceedingly wary about the surrounding environment (deemed dangerous due to the fact there is an inferiority complex surrounding the function Se), and obsessed with detail work. In the case of the Anima/Animus, the inferior function is consciously controlled but not really trusted as much as the Hero or the Auxiliary.

  5. #115
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    inferior function (the Anima/Animus) is the gateway to the unconscious (and is thus still consciously controllable, but highly unpredictable and unstable).
    actually
    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus
    Jung said that "the encounter with the shadow is the 'apprentice-piece' in the individual's development...that with the anima is the 'masterpiece'"
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #116
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    ...Unconscious mind is a realm in which things are easily associated with other stuff and the whole system(human brains) works by this thing what jung called libido(which is pretty much the same as the idea of action potential in modern neuroscience).
    Like hit points in a video game?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    The unconscious mind can be separated into two system that are linked together. Jung called these systems 'personal unconscious' and 'collective unconscious'. Collective unconscious is basically what you have coded in your genes, some jungians extend the idea of collective unconscious to even body(like growing 5 fingers in each hand instead of 9 in one hand and 2 in other hand), others just limit it to psychology and archetypes which are the psychic manifestations of different structures of collective unconscious.
    My current understanding is that MBTI does not encompass collective unconsciousness...which sounds to me like bios, which then makes the self (including the unconscious part of it) the operating system..and the libido then becomes power supply...?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    The way in which personal unconscious is linked to collective unconscious is that the structures of personal unconscious(these are what jung called complexes) are built over the structures of collective unconscious(there is an archetype behind every complex, but one complex might be connected to many archetypal themes, there are many complexes built over single archetype and one complex might make new associations between other complexes with different archetypal base).
    So complexes are the drivers for hardware? Then what do arcyetyps become in this example?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Now when it comes to libido, in order for something to be conscious, there must be suitable networks of associations or/and strong enough stream of libido to get to consciousness and through ego blocks. The thing with complexes is that they block the energy flow of libido, kinda like guides it towards the unconscious and if there are lots of complexes over something, its hard for us to process it rationally(i.e. consciously) as the emotions and gut feelings created by complexes take the lead. Archetypes closely associated to complexes make this effect of acting through the unconscious even stronger and hence the activation of an archetypes has so strong effect in us.
    So anything that cannot get powered by libido remain unconscious...

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Now when it comes to functions and archetypes, many jungians(for example marie von franz who was most likely the closest associate of jung in analytical psychology circles) has argued that archetypes manifest through the inferior function the most.
    But which archetype?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    It makes perfect sense(inferior being the most unconscious functions and thus being most tied to complexes and archetypes and having more associations to that direction instead of being connected to ego, or more precisely to its cognitive side) and i can see it working in people. Now the important thing to understand is that a function is not some one thing, functions are ways of perceiving and processing information and someone might had been differentiated thinking in some task, but not on something else.
    My current understanding is that not 4th but the 8th function is the mst unconscious one, i.e. gets least powered by libido...

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But its not, even tho the outcome of putting trust to a professional is the same that an Te user would more naturally do. This is because this issue at hand is such that it would be stupid in my opinion to put trust in someone whos ideas are both against what more credible professionals say about it and against what i have experienced in myself and others.
    You must have missed the part I was talking about walls of text..

    Thanks for taking your time though...

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  7. #117
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Like hit points in a video game?
    I dont get where you got that video game hit point thing, so probably no.


    My current understanding is that MBTI does not encompass collective unconsciousness...which sounds to me like bios, which then makes the self (including the unconscious part of it) the operating system..and the libido then becomes power supply...?
    MBTI is a quiz made to indicate persons jungian type or to be more exact to help a professional and analysand figure out the persons type and there is a simplified explanation of jungian type included and some new information from new angles to type added to the theory. Jung made up this theory of psyche that included archetypes and he also made up this theory of type and he connected aspects of type to his other stuff, for example archetypes. MBTI left this side out completely. Then came the 8 function theorists who connected archetypes to functions very differently than jung(or other jungians after jung) did and there came this shadow function thing that you are talking about(but you also quote some more traditional jungian stuff about shadow, which is completely different thing than the shadow mentioned at op). I already explained the difference between the two different ideas about the shadow.


    So complexes are the drivers for hardware? Then what do arcyetyps become in this example?
    If you want a computer example its easier to explain it in terms of programming of AI. Basically what this jungian artificial intelligence needs is a ability to learn and utilize this learned information later in calculations. This requires a code that creates a base for learning, something where learned things can be contrasted against at the root level of code. When more things are learned the code arises from the root level and is more influenced by what is learned, calculated and experienced(to which the base code gave roots for). The parts of the root code would obviously be archetypes, then on top of it is built more personal aspect of the whole code, but which has its reference point in something that cant be consciously processed, except in round about ways, like myths and art. Then when the code is processed enough that all irrelevant things are left out, it can be sent to another process which is more limited in its ability to deal with multiple things at once, but which is able to use more rational and consistent processing, this we call conscious processing.


    So anything that cannot get powered by libido remain unconscious...
    Everything is powered by libido(i already said that it works the same way as action potential does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential ), if there is no libido somewhere, it wont be powered. Libido is produced basically in two ways, one is from the external world through perception and nutrition and another is from within from archetypes.

    But which archetype?
    All archetypes, but the most notably the anima/animus.


    My current understanding is that not 4th but the 8th function is the mst unconscious one, i.e. gets least powered by libido...
    There is no 8 functions except in these new theories that contradict the original theory of type that has been much more validated. These theories dont include the same terminology than the real type theory does and most of the original type theory has to be left out because of the contradictions.

    You must have missed the part I was talking about walls of text..
    The idea was simply to educate you about type theory(/theories) and i didnt care to read the whole topic and i dont think its relevant to what i said anyways.

    Thanks for taking your time though...
    np
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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Yes, I see now that what I (and Jung I believe) refer to as shadow is primarily connected to the 5th function...
    No to the underlined
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #119
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    actually
    The anima/animus is a masterpiece and crucial to our development, but this discussion pertains to the shadow, which in this case would be the anima/animus expressed negatively, which is bad for our development. For instance, healthy development for an INxJ of Se would be trusting sensory experiences and actively experiencing the world and integrating with it ( juxtaposing the detachment caused by dominant Ni), but on the contrary, shadowing would be the use of Se negatively, lashing out against the world by obsessing over particularities, facts, etc, and completely inhibiting the dominant function, disorganizing the functional stack and putting too much faith in the lower functions rather than using the inferior complementary with the more developed functions.

  10. #120
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post

    Yeah, the Opposing Personality Complex differs from what people have coined "The Shadow" even though "The Shadow" doesn't reflect the true shadow processes.
    What is "The Shadow" in MBTI terms?

    Who coined it that way even though it doesn't represent the shadow functions?

    Which one is closer to Jung's description of the shadow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The difference lies in the fact that the Opp. Per. Complex (to be further denoted as the Anti-Hero) is situated entirely in the unconscious and is uncontrollable, alien even, while the inferior function (the Anima/Animus) is the gateway to the unconscious (and is thus still consciously controllable, but highly unpredictable and unstable).
    Cause the inferior lies just next to the unconscious part of the "self"?

    It's awkward cause it's weak like a left hand or foot...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Whereas there is conscious control exhibited over the inferior though it might seem otherworldly and a juxtaposition to the Hero (dominant), the shadow processes are usually more sinister due to the fact that they have been outcast from the regular processes.
    What you and I call as the shadow here is our mirror image...our (dark/bad/weak) side that we turned oyr backs on but yearn to make peace with and long to reconnect with..

    I can connect with it in my daydreams and fantasies...it feels blissful...

    So what nomenclature should you suggest that I use?

    And who in nine hells first introduced this conflicting nomenclature in the first place?

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