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  1. #1
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Default Some interesting type patterns I've noticed.

    Here are some interesting patterns I have divulged recently with some crossovers from Socionics and MBTI JCF (Yes, the functions aren't exactly the same, but interesting nonetheless). Let's see what we can dissect from this.

    INTJ: Ni - Te - Fi - Se - Ne - Ti - Fe - Si

    INTJ ISFP ENTP ESFJ
    (Ni-Te) - (Fi - Se) - (Ne - Ti) - (Fe - Si)
    Identity Activity Contrary Conflictor
    Hero Child Anti-Hero Trickster

    INTp - ISFj = Activity (Hero-Child = Complementary)
    ENTp - ESFj = Activity (Antihero-Trickster = Complementary)

    INTp - ENTp = Contrary (Hero-Antihero complex, Antihero archetype extinguishes Hero archetype)
    ISFj - ENTp = Conflicting (Child-Antihero complex, Antihero archetype goes against valued child archetype)

    INTp - ESFj = Conflicting (Hero-Trickster complex, Trickster archetype goes against valued Hero archetype)
    ISFj - ESFJ = Contrary (Child-Trickster complex, Trickster archetype extinguishes Child archetype)

    As @Eric B arranged this in his incredible mountain of information on Jungian Archetypes:



    If this is accurate, what is the Hero personality of Ni to the daemon of Si in Socionics?

    INTJ daemon type = ISFJ (Si (daemon)- Fe (trickster))

    INTJ ISFJ
    (Ni-Te) (Si-Fe)

    INTp - ISFp = Super-Ego relations

    What about the child type and the senex/witch type (introverted Antihero)?

    ISFP INTP
    (Fi-Se) (Ti-Ne)

    ISFj - INTj = Super-Ego relations

    INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ

    INTJ = Melancholic
    ISFP = Phlegmatic
    ENTP = Sanguine
    ESFJ = Choleric
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ
    (Te-Ni) (Se-Fi) (Ti-Ne) (Si-Fe)
    Identity Activity Contrary Conflictor
    Hero Child Antihero Trickster

    Therefore, this is true for all types.

    Hero-Hero = Identity

    Hero-Child = Activity

    Hero-Antihero = Contrary

    Hero-Trickster = Conflictor


    But if we also break it down further (and assume that each of the four personality mechanisms keep the same Kiersy Temperament and all in relation to the INTp):

    Hero (INTp) - Parent (ENTj) = Mirror

    Child (ISFj) - Anima/Animus (ESFp) = Mirror

    Antihero (ENTp) - Witch/Senex (INTj) = Mirror

    Trickster (ESFj) - Daemon (ISFp) = Mirror
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Hero (INTp) - Daemon (ISFp) = Super-Ego

    Parent (ENTj) - Trickster (ESFj) = Super-Ego

    Child (ISFj) - Witch/Senex (INTj) = Super-Ego

    Anima/Animus (ESFp) - Antihero (ENTp) = Super-Ego
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Hero (INTp) - Trickster (ESFj) = Conflicting

    Parent (ENTj) - Daemon (ISFp) = Conflicting

    Child (ISFj) - Antihero (ENTP) = Conflicting

    Anima/Animus (ESFP) - (INTj) = Conflicting
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Hero (INTp) - Anima/Animus (ESFp) = Duality

    Parent (ENTj) - Child (ISFj) = Duality

    Antihero (ENTp) - Daemon (ISFp) = Duality

    Witch/Senex (INTj) - Trickster (ESFj) = Duality
    -------------------------------------------------------
    and more.

    Any commentary someone is willing to add?

    EDIT: I left in some temperament information with the INTJ, but didn't include one for the ENTJ example, so:

    ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ

    ENTJ = Choleric
    ESFP = Sanguine
    INTP = Phlegmatic
    ISFJ = Melancholic

    DOUBLE EDIT: Here's a link to Eric B's function archetype website.

    TRIPLE EDIT: Just realized that the ENTJ's 4 types' temperaments (ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ) have the inverse of the INTJ's 4 types' temperaments (INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ)

  2. #2
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Some more data pieces regarding Temperaments:

    Choleric Functions: Fe, Te (ExxJ)
    Melancholic Functions: Ni, Si (IxxJ)
    Phlegmatic Functions: Fi, Ti (IxxP)
    Sanguine Functions: Ne, Se (ExxP)

    Rational: Choleric and Phlegmatic
    Irrational: Melancholic and Sanguine

    INTJ: Ni - Te - Fi - Se - Ne - Ti - Fe - Si

    Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Choleric - Melancholic

    How interesting, it's the same order as Eric B's archetype chart.

    ENTJ: Te - Ni - Se - Fi - Ti - Ne - Si - Fe

    Choleric - Melancholic - Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Melancholic - Choleric

    ENTP: Ne - Ti - Fe - Si - Ni - Te - Fi - Se

    Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Choleric - Melancholic - Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine

    INTP: Ti - Ne - Si - Fe - Te - Ni - Se - Fi

    Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Melancholic - Choleric - Choleric - Melancholic - Sanguine - Phlegmatic

    ExTP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Pe - Ti)
    ExTJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Te - Pi)
    IxTP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ti - Pe)
    IxTJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Pi - Te)

    ENxP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Ne - Ji)
    INxP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ji - Ne)
    ENxJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Je - Ni)
    INxJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Ni - Je)

    ESxP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Se - Ji)
    ISxP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ji - Se)
    ESxJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Je - Si)
    ISxJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Si - Je)

    ExFP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Pe - Fi)
    IxFP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Fi - Pe)
    ExFJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Fe - Pi)
    IxFJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Pi - Fe)

    Polar dichotomies:

    Melancholic ----- Sanguine (Irrational Pole)
    Choleric ----- Phlegmatic (Rational Pole)

    Melancholic - Moody, emotionally unstable, hard-working
    Sanguine - Joyful, emotionally stable, procrastinating/playful

    Choleric - Angry, emotionally unstable, hard-working
    Phlegmatic - Apathetic, emotionally stable, procrastinating/playful

    Melancholic dominants suppress or lack Sanguine qualities
    Choleric dominants suppress or lack Phlegmatic qualities
    Sanguine dominants suppress or lack Melancholic qualities
    Phlegmatic dominants suppress or lack Choleric qualities

    EDIT: Hmmm, they don't necessarily lack certain qualities; ISTPs, for instance, can appear Choleric and they are Phlegmatics in this system, perhaps their Choleric tendencies only arise during periods of stress.

    Revision:
    Melancholic dominants become Sanguine under distress
    Sanguine dominants become Melancholic under distress
    Choleric dominants become Phlegmatic under distress
    Phlegmatic dominants become Choleric under distress

  3. #3
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Temperaments and Tertiary function/Relief function/Child archetype

    INTJ = Ni - Te - Fi - Se

    Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine

    When disengaged from the Hero personality, the Ego inflates the relief function to obtain the mantle of the dominant personality, meaning that we engage this function when we are under strain or when we are looking to find "child-like" satisfaction. The INTJ is a melancholic dominant with Ni, so when there is too much pressure or the INTJ would like to get that "child-like" satisfaction, the user engages Fi, a phlegmatic function. Through this, we can ascertain that the INTJ becomes phlegmatic when engaging this function, and since this pertains to Fi, indulging of emotions and emotional fantasies (Hero-Child complex cooperation? Ni-Fi?). The INTJ will appear Phlegmatic instead of the usual Melancholic, meaning that they will become noticeably apathetic and uncaring about the external world, in favor of the inner emotional realm that has unconsciously taken control of the usual melancholic personality.

    Melancholic Dominants (Ni,Si) become Phlegmatic (Fi,Ti) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
    Choleric Dominants (Te, Fe) become Sanguine (Ne, Se) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
    Phlegmatic Dominants (Ti, Fi) become Melancholic (Ni, Si) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
    Sanguine Dominants (Ne, Se) become Choleric (Te, Fe) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.

    The Most Melancholic function is Ni (due to its innate neuroticism and obsession with the esoteric)
    The Most Sanguine function is Se (due to its innate impulsitivity and obsession with gathering sensory details)
    The Most Phlegmatic function is Fi (due to its innate apathy to everyone excepting the self and obsession with emotional self-indulgence rather than internal logical consistency of Ti)
    The Most Choleric function is Te (due to its innate abrasiveness and blunt nature compared to the softened Fe)

    Specifically (with regards to Eric's descriptions of Tertiary Relief functions),

    Ni (More Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of simulations, where it is deemed as an entertaining task by the ISxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the raw absorption of sensory information from the environment of parent Se.

    Si (Less Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of memories and past events, where it is deemed as entertainingly nostalgic by the INxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the metaphorical and analogical Ne parent.

    Ne (Less Sanguine) indulgence would include the child-like linking of ideas, the utilization of metaphors, similes, analogies to explain perceptions, where it is deemed as an entertaining process but one that is not useful compared to parent Si perception in the ESxJ.

    Se (More Sanguine) indulgence would include the child-like indulgence of physical desires, the constant need to do something in the environment to satiate the base desires of the personality (absorption of experience), where it is deemed as an entertaining process but reckless to the Parent Ni perception in the ExTJ.

    Te (More Choleric) indulgence would include the child-like gathering of factual and statistical information, the building of structured information that can be applied soundly to reality, where it is deemed as an entertaining but less suitable approach to decision making than that of the valued parent Fi in the ExFP.

    Fe (Less Choleric) indulgence would include the child-like empathetic decision making that aids others, the courteous, harmonious environment that can make others feel at ease and comfortable, where it is deemed as an entertaining but unfavorable way of making decisions (based on others compared to self) compared to the logical approach of parent Ti in the ExTP.

    Ti (Less Phlegmatic) indulgence would include the child-like analysis of perception information to create logical principles, the building of categories and sweeping structures with little basis in reality, which is seen as an entertaining alternative but somewhat idealistic to the parent Fe, which is more grounded, externally focused, and others-oriented in the IxFJ.

    Fi (More Phlegmatic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of inner emotions to build internal values, the fine-tuning of emotions and the exploration of deeper, visceral emotions, which is seen as an entertaining process but ultimately useless in the search for clear objectivity and useful purpose of external, grounded Te in the IxTJ.

  4. #4
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    This; "Si (Less Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of memories and past events, where it is deemed as entertainingly nostalgic by the INxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the metaphorical and analogical Ne parent." doesent really fit me and rest seems like misuse of the term archetype and what seems like an exel sheet of a function theory posted in forum form.

    Also if inferior function = anima, then what

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Types-Typology-psychology-analysts/dp/0919123309
    In general, the extraverted man has an introverted anima,
    while the introverted woman has an extraverted animus, and
    vice versa. This picture can change through psychological
    work on oneself,
    but these inner images are commonly projected
    onto persons of the opposite sex, with the result that
    either attitude type is prone to marry its opposite. This is
    likely to happen because each type is unconsciously complementary
    to the other.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est You're trying to tie the classic temperaments to the eight function attitudes?
    I find that they tie to Interaction Styles and Keirsey temperaments.

    Here's how the functions would end up fitting in my correlation:

    Te as dominant will be Choleric (In Charge Interaction Style, and pure Choleric when paired with Ni).
    Fi as dominant will be Phlegmatic (or Supine; Behind the Scenes, and pure when paired with Ne).
    Se will be Sanguine (SP) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Fi).
    Si will be Melancholic (SJ) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Te).

    Ne will also be Sanguine (Get Things Going Interaction style) when dominant
    Ni will also be Melancholic (Chart the Course) when dominant

    Anima/animus dynamics will correspond to some extent with this, because Phlegmatic or Supine (Fi) will look up to Choleric (Te), and Choleric will like leading Supine.
    Likewise Sanguine (Se) Melancholic (Ni) OR
    Sanguine (Ne) Melancholic (Si)

    Ti and Fe are so "enigmatic" when it comes to temperament; being "all over the place", pairing together opposites or near opposites (like Sanguine and Melancholy).
    In dom. or aux. they can be any Interaction Style, and either pragmatic (Ti) or cooperative (Fe) Keirseyan temperament.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    @Alea_iacta_est You're trying to tie the classic temperaments to the eight function attitudes?
    I find that they tie to Interaction Styles and Keirsey temperaments.

    Here's how the functions would end up fitting in my correlation:

    Te as dominant will be Choleric (In Charge Interaction Style, and pure Choleric when paired with Ni).
    Fi as dominant will be Phlegmatic (or Supine; Behind the Scenes, and pure when paired with Ne).
    Se will be Sanguine (SP) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Fi).
    Si will be Melancholic (SJ) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Te).

    Ne will also be Sanguine (Get Things Going Interaction style) when dominant
    Ni will also be Melancholic (Chart the Course) when dominant

    Anima/animus dynamics will correspond to some extent with this, because Phlegmatic or Supine (Fi) will look up to Choleric (Te), and Choleric will like leading Supine.
    Likewise Sanguine (Se) Melancholic (Ni) OR
    Sanguine (Ne) Melancholic (Si)

    Ti and Fe are so "enigmatic" when it comes to temperament; being "all over the place", pairing together opposites or near opposites (like Sanguine and Melancholy).
    In dom. or aux. they can be any Interaction Style, and either pragmatic (Ti) or cooperative (Fe) Keirseyan temperament.
    Interesting, I didn't think about tying it to the interaction styles, and I forgot to include Supine as well. The way I reasoned this is through the more Socionics way of temperament with IP, IJ, EP, and EJ being Melancholic, Phlegmatic, Sanguine, and Choleric respectively, through this, I concluded that Je would be Choleric, Ji would be Phlegmatic, Pe would be Sanguine, and Pi would be Melancholic.

  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I'm very leery of mapping to Socionics, because j/p is different from MBTI's J/P.
    J/P figures in the temperaments, along with T/F; for "people vs task" (whether informing/directing of the Interaction Styles or motive/structure of the Keirsey temperaments). EJ, IJ, EP, IP actually correspond to the Interaction Styles, for N's.
    But J/P refers to extraverted function (which will figure in the outward behavior of temperament, as extraverting a judgment will tend to be more task focused, and extraverting perception will be less so).
    But for Socionics, it's about dominant function. That only matches for extraverts. Then, you have those who claim it still matches for introverts (or some introverts), which then changes the definitions of the function-attitudes.

    "Temperament" in Socionics is probably not even meant to be correlated with the classic temperaments.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #8
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    "Temperament" in Socionics is probably not even meant to be correlated with the classic temperaments.
    Yea I stopped comparing Socionics and MBTI cause of this.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  9. #9
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    My bad for making some obvious missteps in this guys. Probably shouldn't be directly relating Socionics, MBTI JCF, and Classical Temperaments in the first place.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    My bad for making some obvious missteps in this guys. Probably shouldn't be directly relating Socionics, MBTI JCF, and Classical Temperaments in the first place.
    I actually think that Je = choleric, Ji = phlegmatic, Pe = sanguine and Pi = melancholic makes perfect sense. Especially for the extroverted functions.

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