User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 20

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Introducing! The not-new, totally unoriginal typing system!

    The MBTI has a way of correlating with the classical temperaments of Sanguine-Choleric-Phlegmatic-Melancholic from Galen's days. The system assigned Keirsey's behavior types of SP-SJ-NF-NT to different temperaments. Nostalgic SJ's were typed Melancholic, while SP's, with their strong desire for immediate pleasurable sensation, were Sanguine.

    Originally the NF idealists were to be typed as Choleric. You see, the modern definition of Choleric generally means that the person is disciplined and in control of emotions, qualities of a hard worker and a good leader. However, this newer definition draws from different, later psychology. The original definition of Choleric ironically meant that the person was only more emotional, thereby expressing more anger and also showing more determination when pursuing what they really believe in. The implication was that these people were more passionate and would always prove more productive than those who suffered less, which is less true in this modern world. Hence, they would be NF, leaving Phlegmatic for NT, the last Keirsey Temperament left.

    However, the temperaments were later switched between NF and NT because although the NT's were more "cool-headed," they were also known for being the more determined, and apparently these were now the defining traits of the Choleric, not extroverted neuroticism as it had been before.


    However, this raises several issues. Firstly, even while still using the old Keirsey system, the NT Rationals, though certainly determined, would fall under the umbrella of "Choleric," but less so than the SJs. This is most apparent comparing the ESTJ and ENTJ. The original definition of "Melancholic" meant the introverted analog to the Choleric, and it also meant that these individuals would be the types most suited to deep cerebral thinking and calculation, while the extroverted Cholerics would focus more on putting these plans into action.
    Though intelligent individuals have been found among all types, generally ENTJ scores for IQ are higher than ESTJ, and NTs over all typed as the most intelligent.
    In addition, the ESTJ has a slightly harder time holding back anger than the ENTJ. When comparing Melancholic and Choleric, the Choleric would still show more anger than the Melancholic because of extroversion of anger, so in this case it would be more correct to type the ESTJ as Pure Choleric and the ENTJ as Choleric-Melancholic instead of the other way around. This would make NT's in general Melancholic and SJ's Choleric.


    However, there is still issue with this system even with these changes. SJ and SP both indicate a single cognitive function, Se for SP's and Si for SJ's. NT and NF, though, both indicate two cognitive functions, saying nothing of their positions in Introversion/Extroversion. In addition, it pairs all people who are Intuitive and Feeling as one collective umbrella of a type, to say nothing of all those who are Sensitive and Feeling. It does the same thing with the SP's, pigeonholing all people who are Sensitive and Perceptive without comparing them to Intuitive Perceivers.

    This unequal classification glazes over important similarities between similar types, e.g. ESFP vs ENFP, and in doing so assigns certain qualities and even archetypes to temperaments without considering how the individual letters would affect each type. For instance, ENFPs are Idealist NFs, known according to Keirsey for being most concerned with humanity and their ideals. They are one letter apart from ESFPs. Both types are E, F, and P. They are both extroverted and they both have Fi auxiliary, so they would behave certain ways. However, ESFPs are SP Artisans because they have strong Se, which would give them focus on concrete sensory information in the physical world. They would be pegged as the ultimate "thrill seekers," which they for the most part are.

    However, these archetypes are very different from one another even though the cognitive function orders are almost the same. Ordinarily, ESFPs and ENFPs would easily sympathize with others in their environment, and as they matured, take greater and greater consideration for those around them. They don't have Fe, so they aren't "in the moment" as to how other people are feeling, but assuming both individuals are healthy, they would both show the same amount of concern according to their cognitive functions because the only difference is their primary Pe, the different ways in which they perceive reality.

    The ENFPs, being NF, are portrayed as the idealists that they generally are with a deep concern for others. This is true in healthy individuals. However, the assignment of these altruistic characteristics to the overall NF creates an idealization of anyone with these two letters and can often lead to the Forer Effect. ENFPs are idealists because they deal in people (Fi) and ideas (Ne.)
    That said, according to the nature of Fi ESFPs should behave the same way, yet other types frequently call them out for being rude or inconsiderate. This, coupled with the association of all SPs collectively with "thrill-seekers," creates the impression that they are no longer like their ENFP cousins in how they care for others. This is not true. Both types have Fi auxiliary, so healthy individuals would care about other people to the same degree: the ESFP simply absorbs reality in a different way, but the motivations are exactly the same.

    This association of different traits with such subjectively selected traits gives the final impression that SPs are careless, SJs are controlling and dogmatic, NFs are caring and deep, and NTs are emotionally controlled and logical. While that may be true, in terms of cognitive functions this is simply not a fair way to classify. J/P let you see the flaws of SPs and SJs, while F/T highlighted the advantages of NF and NT. NJs can be in fact just as controlling as SJs, and NPs, with their emphasis on whole new ideas to explore around them instead of just sensory stimulus, are probably even more careless than SPs.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    When contrasting the ESTP and ESFJ, the results appear strange. Even when flipping SJ and NT with Melancholic and Choleric and making SJ Choleric, the ESFJ is still Sanguine-Choleric and the ESTP is still Choleric-Sanguine. This actually makes little sense. Though the Fe-dominant ESFJs do live and breathe in the world of people, they can be somewhat domineering for a Feeling type, more so than any of the other ESF/ENP Sanguine-primaries. This is based on their similarity to the Choleric-Phlegmatic ENFJs in that they both have Fe dominant, so they care about adhering to objective emotional data and like to take charge.
    The ESTP, on the other hand, is a thrill-seeker, possibly the ultimate thrill-seeker. They do show much less emotion than any extroverted feeler, to be sure, but although they can be domineering, they are not very organized. ESTPs only control others when it benefits their personal whims. They show little concern for organized systems.
    This said, it would make more sense to type the ESFJ Choleric-Sanguine and the ESTP Sanguine-Choleric, since Choleric in this case now refers to determination and leadership rather than the quality of emotion displayed. This would now make the ST-types Choleric and the SF-types Sanguine in terms of Keirsey Temperaments, and this in turn would render EP-EJ-IP-IJ as the primary temperaments. This makes sense because although STs do not like to show intimate, warm emotion, they are much quicker to anger than NTs, hence making them Choleric. SFs would also react to primitive emotions such as anger on a kneejerk physical level, but would also more readily display warmth, making them Sanguine. Contrasting with NF and NT which are slower to react in such a way, this would make Intuitives slightly more “introverted” in terms of how the qualities of their temperaments are displayed.


    To sum it up,
    EP-EJ-IP-IJ
    SF-ST-NF-NJ

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    MBTI
    INxP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    14

    Default

    It seems like you might be overanalyzing. Are they really even connected ?

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelstein View Post
    It seems like you might be overanalyzing. Are they really even connected ?
    There is an official correlation between MBTI and Four Humors if you look it up, however they made SP/SJ vs NF/NT. Classifying it that way is total BS considering that SP/SJ defines a single cognitive function. They're not even comparable to NF/NT.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Socionics
    ILI
    Posts
    1,838

    Default

    ISTJ Pure Melancholy (My family and several friends)
    ISFJ Phlegmatic/Melancholy ("PhlegMel")
    INFJ Melancholy/Phlegmatic ("MelPhleg")
    INTJ Melancholy/Choleric ("MelChlor")
    ISTP Melancholy/Sanguine ("MelSan")
    ISFP Phlegmatic/Sanguine ("PhlegSan")
    INFP Pure Phlegmatic
    INTP Phlegmatic/Choleric ("PhlegChlor") (Xander's FIRO score was very close, and I basically fit both categories as well)
    ESTP Choleric/Sanguine ("ChlorSan")
    ESFP Pure Sanguine
    ENFP Sanguine/Phlegmatic ("SanPhleg")
    ENTP Sanguine/Choleric ("SanChlor")
    ESTJ Choleric/Melancholy ("ChlorMel")
    ESFJ Sanguine/Melancholy ("SanMel")
    ENFJ Choleric/Phlegmatic ("ChlorPhleg")
    ENTJ Pure Choleric
    http://forums.intpcentral.com/showth...peraments-quot

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I've seen this. I'm not sure how accurate it is because of SJ vs NT. Also SP/SJ are one cognitive function vs NF/NT's 2.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Socionics
    ILI
    Posts
    1,838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    I've seen this. I'm not sure how accurate it is because of SJ vs NT. Also SP/SJ are one cognitive function vs NF/NT's 2.
    Considering the OP of this list was @Eric B, I think its reliable. All of his posts seem to indicate his depth of knowledge on the subject, though I would reverse ENTJ and ESTJ and some others.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Considering the OP of this list was @Eric B, I think its reliable. All of his posts seem to indicate his depth of knowledge on the subject, though I would reverse ENTJ and ESTJ and some others.
    I know it's official. I just don't think it was categorized well enough when it was originally made, even if it is the real system.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    SeNi
    Enneagram
    8+7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SeTi
    Posts
    940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    When contrasting the ESTP and ESFJ, the results appear strange. Even when flipping SJ and NT with Melancholic and Choleric and making SJ Choleric, the ESFJ is still Sanguine-Choleric and the ESTP is still Choleric-Sanguine. This actually makes little sense. Though the Fe-dominant ESFJs do live and breathe in the world of people, they can be somewhat domineering for a Feeling type, more so than any of the other ESF/ENP Sanguine-primaries. This is based on their similarity to the Choleric-Phlegmatic ENFJs in that they both have Fe dominant, so they care about adhering to objective emotional data and like to take charge.
    The ESTP, on the other hand, is a thrill-seeker, possibly the ultimate thrill-seeker. They do show much less emotion than any extroverted feeler, to be sure, but although they can be domineering, they are not very organized. ESTPs only control others when it benefits their personal whims. They show little concern for organized systems.
    This said, it would make more sense to type the ESFJ Choleric-Sanguine and the ESTP Sanguine-Choleric, since Choleric in this case now refers to determination and leadership rather than the quality of emotion displayed. This would now make the ST-types Choleric and the SF-types Sanguine in terms of Keirsey Temperaments, and this in turn would render EP-EJ-IP-IJ as the primary temperaments. This makes sense because although STs do not like to show intimate, warm emotion, they are much quicker to anger than NTs, hence making them Choleric. SFs would also react to primitive emotions such as anger on a kneejerk physical level, but would also more readily display warmth, making them Sanguine. Contrasting with NF and NT which are slower to react in such a way, this would make Intuitives slightly more “introverted” in terms of how the qualities of their temperaments are displayed.


    To sum it up,
    EP-EJ-IP-IJ
    SF-ST-NF-NJ
    First, I never liked the Keirsey system, yeah, makes no sense about SJ/SP vs NT/NF. At all. Though I understand it's probably based on some kind of observation of common traits or something.

    I don't like how the meaning of the temperaments changes like this, first Choleric is this (emotionality), and then becomes that (disciplined)? I know it wasn't you who changed these definitions over time but it's just confusing.

    And then.. What are NF's now in your system, Phlegmatic or Melancholic? And then NT's would be associated with the remaining temperament? Is that really how it plays out in reality?

    Otherwise cool analysis

    Btw, I test fifty-fifty on Sanguine and 50% Choleric, yep. (Only a little melancholic/phlegmatic on the side.) How about you?

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    First, I never liked the Keirsey system, yeah, makes no sense about SJ/SP vs NT/NF. At all. Though I understand it's probably based on some kind of observation of common traits or something.

    I don't like how the meaning of the temperaments changes like this, first Choleric is this (emotionality), and then becomes that (disciplined)? I know it wasn't you who changed these definitions over time but it's just confusing.

    And then.. What are NF's now in your system, Phlegmatic or Melancholic? And then NT's would be associated with the remaining temperament? Is that really how it plays out in reality?

    Otherwise cool analysis

    Btw, I test fifty-fifty on Sanguine and 50% Choleric, yep. (Only a little melancholic/phlegmatic on the side.) How about you?
    EP and SF are Sanguine

    EJ and ST are Choleric

    IP and NF are Phlegmatic

    IJ and NT are Melancholic

    And it's not my system. Other people have speculated this before.

Similar Threads

  1. I invented a new typing system, try it out.
    By DerekEvans01 in forum Other Personality Systems
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 12-01-2017, 11:48 PM
  2. [Tri] How does the tri-type system work?
    By cyrilraymond in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-08-2014, 03:56 PM
  3. Introducing the new ISTP forum
    By Azure Flame in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-05-2012, 05:25 PM
  4. [Tri] How does the tri-type system work?
    By Glycerine in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-12-2010, 04:47 PM
  5. [Other] Re-introducing the new EMTP
    By Nocapszy in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-28-2008, 10:48 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO