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  1. #81
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The point I was making is that MBTI J is NOT just a result of Te/Fe, but a result of a whole mindset which includes Pi. The J outer personality comes from Je + Pi, not just Pi. This is probably why you see & agree with the below.

    There are characteristics of MBTI "J" in Pi thinking. It's not just a result of Je.
    I absolutely completely agree with this, and have been saying this for a long time actually. If you were to take the overall weight of my J and P functions, it's about even. Yet, when I take any type of test that measures out J, always my strongest, and very very strong at that. Yet, I am clearly a Pi dominant.

    I am speaking in terms of IxxJ and IxxP types here just for clarity: I think a lot of it comes from the fact that Pi functions need to be filtered. Stand alone unprocessed, what they bring to the table is pretty much useless. The way in which they need to be processed is very J most of the time.

    The inverse is for Ji functions. They are by their nature J oriented, but more or less useless (though not nearly as pronounced as it is with Pi functions) stand alone. Unlike Pi functions, it can be used, but it's often not. They need to be processed, and the way in which they are processed is inheriently very P.

    Really, for introverted types, their primary function, while either P or J, actually shows up differently because of the needs of it. That's ultimately what shows up externally, because it's what introverts are trying to do, that ends up showing.
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  2. #82
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I think this description I have stolen from PerC might be of interest in this thread.



    I think this description is a fair assessment, but what I find incredibly intriguing is the portion I have underlined. I never thought this would be a connection to a Cognitive Function, but I've always done this, and do this frequently. When I see new information or hear something important, I can actually "flag" that information and tell myself to recall it at a certain date, and it would indeed pop into my mind at the exact time I needed it (once I realized I could do this, I began thinking of things to remember when I lay on my deathbed, and now I'm worried what might surface there). I can tell myself in the morning that I need to get something done tomorrow morning, and I can and probably would forget about it for the rest of the day, but then come morning I would instantly recall it. To add to this, I had an interesting morning when I was running late for something and I was trying to remember what all I needed, and then everything I realized I needed popped into my head like a bombardment of information, and I knew exactly what needed to be done in what order to ensure that I reach the place on time. Anyone else resonate with this at all?
    How would you distinguish this from introverted sensing?
    They do a storing up of info also.
    Kind of how Ti & Fi both create conceptual categories of sorts but in different ways & used to gauge very different things.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #83
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    How would you distinguish this from introverted sensing?
    They do a storing up of info also.
    Kind of how Ti & Fi both create conceptual categories of sorts but in different ways & used to gauge very different things.
    I'd assume it would be different in the fact that Ni flags information to be utilized in the future unlike Si, which might be more oriented to recalling things in the past to deal with the present (I assume this is a correct interpretation of Si).

    Plus, the initial source doesn't list that detail under Si, so we can't be certain that it pertains to all Pi users.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I think this description is a fair assessment, but what I find incredibly intriguing is the portion I have underlined. I never thought this would be a connection to a Cognitive Function, but I've always done this, and do this frequently. When I see new information or hear something important, I can actually "flag" that information and tell myself to recall it at a certain date, and it would indeed pop into my mind at the exact time I needed it (once I realized I could do this, I began thinking of things to remember when I lay on my deathbed, and now I'm worried what might surface there). I can tell myself in the morning that I need to get something done tomorrow morning, and I can and probably would forget about it for the rest of the day, but then come morning I would instantly recall it. To add to this, I had an interesting morning when I was running late for something and I was trying to remember what all I needed, and then everything I realized I needed popped into my head like a bombardment of information, and I knew exactly what needed to be done in what order to ensure that I reach the place on time. Anyone else resonate with this at all?
    You know, I think do some version of the flagging thing. But in my case, it's not really conscious and deliberate like yours, and certainly I don't put a conscious future time stamp on it.

    For me, it's more like certain information feels/looks/resonates as more vivid to me than the rest, and I'll register that at some level but not immediately pursue it. Then when the larger scale pattern or meaning gets clearer from more information and time, usually in more obvious ways, the vivid stuff will come back into my line of sight and proves useful. And what I mean by "vivid" is like something that's in color in a black and white context, or three dimensions in a two dimensional field, or it will kind of ring like a bell or otherwise resonate like sound (bass level) in some underneath way, and that vividness will get my attention and I'll mark it. If it doesn't have immediate relevance, I put it aside for later. I think I probably do this a lot, actually. It's not the same approach to data as systematically and inductively collecting and analyzing data to figure out the pattern (I say this as someone who has done that kind of research professionally). It's more like ... metaphorically, it's like something in me knows that this will show itself as useful someday so makes it more vivid to get my attention.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    You know, I think do some version of the flagging thing. But in my case, it's not really conscious and deliberate like yours, and certainly I don't put a conscious future time stamp on it.

    For me, it's more like certain information feels/looks/resonates as more vivid to me than the rest, and I'll register that at some level but not immediately pursue it. Then when the larger scale pattern or meaning gets clearer from more information and time, usually in more obvious ways, the vivid stuff will come back into my line of sight and proves useful. And what I mean by "vivid" is like something that's in color in a black and white context, or three dimensions in a two dimensional field, or it will kind of ring like a bell or otherwise resonate like sound (bass level) in some underneath way, and that vividness will get my attention and I'll mark it. If it doesn't have immediate relevance, I put it aside for later. I think I probably do this a lot, actually. It's not the same approach to data as systematically and inductively collecting and analyzing data to figure out the pattern (I say this as someone who has done that kind of research professionally). It's more like ... metaphorically, it's like something in me knows that this will show itself as useful someday so makes it more vivid to get my attention.
    Interesting with the "feels more vivid" than the rest, for I experience a similar phenomenon where I think some information feels like it is heavier than other information, as if there is an added dimension of weight (it sounds strange, but it really isn't).

    Also, I've had a bit of an epiphany for the "symbols" said to be characteristic of Ni-types. This always confused me because I thought it was literally seeing a still-image symbol for something, when in fact my symbols are like video bits. I don't always know what they mean, but they feel heavier and more pronounced than other forms of thought when I think about them. I have one prominent one right now where there is a dark figure, who I know is me, facing away from my point of view, as if I'm looking at my own shadowed back, and then about 3 seconds an even darker person comes out of the foreground and puts a hand (the entire arm is colored, but nothing else other than the light-bluish foreground and darker blue background) on the top portion of my back. Since the purpose of this thread is to demystify Ni, I need to explain that I can dissect the "video-bit" (meaning that it isn't some ridiculous vision) which is more like a product of my imagination anyways (everyone can make a simulation in their imagination). I don't know what it symbolizes right now, but I have some ideas.

    Interestingly, when I change something with my mind's eye about the simulation/video, it doesn't feel right; for instance, trying to illuminate who the darker figure is by filling in the spaces with random people yields an "uncomfortable" result, and it feels more right if I imagine the figure like it originally was, shrouded.


    By the way, any other Ni-doms experience a compulsion to always know what's coming next or what to expect, at least to have a general idea?

  6. #86
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can't think of a direct example. But it seems a lot of Ni-isms are "paradoxes".
    Just for contrast, a Ne type can hold several possibilities to be, well, possible, even if they contradict. This is more "shallow" in a sense, so it's not so hard to grasp. But with Ni, and arguably Si, there's an ability to see it not as possibility, but reality. I guess it's just the experience of reality being subjective, a matter of interpretation more than objective fact.
    Perhaps N function can be described as fuzzy logic mechanism instead or irrational...

    "Fuzzy logic is a form of many-valued logic; it deals with reasoning that is approximate rather than fixed and exact. Compared to traditional binary sets (where variables may take on true or false values) fuzzy logic variables may have a truth value that ranges in degree between 0 and 1. Fuzzy logic has been extended to handle the concept of partial truth, where the truth value may range between completely true and completely false."

    I also think that N function is somehow related to imagination...Furthermore, I believe Ne is perceiving what's outside the person and is hitting the external object with scenarios/simulations to gather more data thru the object's reactions to multiple stimuli...Ne gauges the external object to gather data and then uses the internal functions of the Ne-dom to analyze the data gathered so as to come to a singular conclusion about the object (identification/recognition)...

    Ni OTOH gazes at what's inside the person...The external functions of the Ni-dom serve as inlets for external information, which are analyzed by Ni-dom and the tertiary function once inside...Therefore both Ni and Ne are actually trying to reach to a singular conclusion about the object using the data gathered thru their respective external functions...Ni starts from 0 and goes to 1 whereas Ne starts from 10 (or 100) and goes down to 1 possible option...At the beginning Ni doesn't see any possible conclusions and then gradually reaches to a singular conclusions when enough data has accumulated within...whereas Ne starts with multiple possibilities and then gradually discards them one by one as further data is gathered...So perhaps both believe their conclusions are absolute...(until conflicting data arrives)...

    Do these sound right???

    Eta: Ni starting with "0" may be analogous to what people mentioned here about Ni assessments reminding them of a blank slate...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    IMO, this makes the Ni+Te combo more interesting in a person because the functions are almost checking each other. I suppose that's what auxiliary functions do (as a complement & "balance"), but it's very obvious in that particular one. Or perhaps there's an advantage that they prove their "checks" to others with Te. NFs have such a disadvantage there. Even INTPs have more frustration.
    Can Fe also be checking Ni deductions against the external world...? Te and Fe are both judging functions...Is Fe irrational too (not a rhetorical question)?

    I agree that Te seems to be geared more towards articulations whereas Fe more towards gestures...However, I think coupled with Ni and Ti, Fe gives me some a tool in articulating my points as well...using analogies that are specifically geared towards the present audience...so that they can be conveyed to the audience...they are not as elaborate as Te presentations though...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-03-2014 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Blue added

  7. #87
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    How would you distinguish this from introverted sensing?
    They do a storing up of info also.
    Kind of how Ti & Fi both create conceptual categories of sorts but in different ways & used to gauge very different things.
    I think Si stores detailed data whereas Ni stores the pattern/essence of the data...

    For lack of better analogy, Si stores the entire word document whereas Ni replaces the frequently repeating word chains inside the document with symbols and stores the crunched/modified document as well as the deciphering/recalling/decompressing code for the symbols...

    It's like using winrar or winzip on a document to compress it to take less storage space...it feels like a storage trick to save storage space and ability to classify and quickly recall data...as well recognize recurring patterns using the decompression code...

  8. #88
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post

    It certainly sounds like we’re on a similar tangent.

    The term ‘blank’ doesn’t quite sit right with me because (if only for me) the association that brings up is of a blank canvas or something- and blank canvases are easier to work with, they can be consciously and willingly filled in. My 'canvas' will reject any paint (or pastel, pencil, etc) I try to force onto it and it'll poke me in the eye for even trying. I feel it’s more like looking at one of those Magic Eye 3D images and a sort of ‘waiting’ (without much idea of what will surface, but the distinct feeling that the image is already there and I can't see it yet- I’m not choosing it, it’s just there) than it is ‘blankness’ per se.

    And yeah, Pe (even Pe aux) to me seems to not understand that limbo in between ‘knowing something is there’ and actually being able to guess what it is. It’s almost like- as soon as they suspect ‘something is there’ (and I realize ‘something’ is incredibly vague, but I can’t think of any other way to say it), they’re flooded with ideas about what it might be- especially Pe doms (obviously).

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Many of the INFJs here are forever bringing up the mental post-it notes that get made- that much definitely happens. And while they do pop up when relevant- something rather aggravating about it is that I won’t even remember exactly what that sticky note is, instead I simply remember “your unconscious has tagged this information before.”

    So roger that on ‘flagging’, but not so much on the clarity of always knowing exactly what those flags mean.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #89
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The term ‘blank’ doesn’t quite sit right with me because (if only for me) the association that brings up is of a blank canvas or something- and blank canvases are easier to work with, they can be consciously and willingly filled in. My 'canvas' will reject any paint (or pastel, pencil, etc) I try to force onto it and it'll poke me in the eye for even trying. I feel it’s more like looking at one of those Magic Eye 3D images and a sort of ‘waiting’ (without much idea of what will surface, but the distinct feeling that the image is already there and I can't see it yet- I’m not choosing it, it’s just there) than it is ‘blankness’ per se.
    yeah, people jump in how it's all a bunch of hunches, but it's the slow version of the fast system. it's not just immediate representational consciousness skipping out on fully experiencing anything. while this is true of Pi in some sense, being a top-down, efficiency perception process as it is, we add another layer to the process. it's not just a physical correlate, it's a metaphysical correlate, which only exists cross-contextually. like without the categories of the categories, the conditions of the conditions, it's not Ni. that's why it's kind of the stacks, or the octaves, or the levels, or the alchemical structures, or the architectures, or the algorithms. it's an inherent intentional building technology, like all J, but made of the essence of things rather than the substance of them, the context of them rather than the sensuality of them.

    so to utilize Ni, for me, is much like you say. it is to soften your focus until you just see an imaginary kind of hyperspace. and then you just wait. offering a command, "self-organize," until, presto, the center of it finally arrives. you can't really explain how you got there (or how it got to you), because it's a bunch of wormholes that can't be observed. a kind of non-linear time travel. the wormholes were within the conditions of your perception, rather than in your ability to perceive through yourself what it's like to experience the movement through them.

    i get impressionistic snapshots, sometimes, on the way, and can word some of the abstract shapes and aspects of the analogies, but the process itself, in its most whole, which requires a kind of visualization of imaginary meanings and shapes that don't exist in and aren't bound by the rules of real space, is long and tedious. i just keep circulating through myself, kind of transfixed on a few things, until the self-organization happens. until i realize, "oh, it is already done."

    that's why, after houdini'ing my way out of the mental chains we collectively share, when busting my way out of a broken metaphysic, when communicating, sometimes i'm just like, let them eat cake. let them untangle themselves. it's just a disconnect, experientially, because i just have no idea what happened. and i'm tired. at least nowadays when i sit down to do work, i commit to a recap period at the end of each session, so i have some story sense to go on, rather than just being tilt-a-whirled to the point of physical exhaustion. deep Ni work is fucking exhausting. it's not something that connects me to my sense of myself as a person, but it is tremendously powerful when i utilize it in a way that does. it needs to be done strategically. otherwise, it's like getting lost in the endless incantations of the butterfly effect, trying to reverse engineer search teams to locate each seed that has contributed to the growing up of this moment, without even being aware of how you yourself arrived there, let alone being able to use that self-awareness in a way that enables you to relate to how others are arriving there as well.

    part of why Ne is so liberating is to feel what it's like to experience this movement while also experiencing the world itself as it is equally changing. it's kind of insane. like Ne is kind of like disembodied and flowing through stories abstracted beyond what can be embodied, guided by a kind of imaginariness holding it all together internally, a kind of essentialized experience of interactiveness in ebbing and flowing motion. so is Ni in its experience of the conditionedness of the world, the underlying organization that allows what we perceive to exist as a possibility, a kind of virtual ground for the movement. it is tautological in this sense, to set forth to imagine the structure of the structures, waiting patiently until you simply complete the circle in enough ways that you just understand in whole, centered context, and you're jumped above it, abstracted and perhaps bracketed from time even as it and you yourself are driven by it.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The term ‘blank’ doesn’t quite sit right with me ... I feel it’s more like looking at one of those Magic Eye 3D images and a sort of ‘waiting’ (without much idea of what will surface, but the distinct feeling that the image is already there and I can't see it yet- I’m not choosing it, it’s just there) than it is ‘blankness’ per se.
    Actually, that does resonate more with how I experience it. I think the initial "blank" description in this thread came from a non-Ni-dom, then the ink dabs part was added by a Ni-dom. But I think your description is even more resonant with what's really "there" for me. It's a landscape of information that's non-differentiated to my conscious mind. And for me, organically, that's really okay.

    eta: So, at dinner, I mentioned the "blank" concept to my partner and she said it doesn't match with her experience of me at all. I then mentioned your Magic 3D Eye metaphor to her and she said that actually does mesh strongly with her experience of me. This underscores my sense that your metaphor refines whatever we're trying to get at in favor of greater accuracy.

    I think I've written this somewhere before but - organically, in contrast to my Fi-dom partner, I seem to have a very high tolerance for ambiguity (ambiguity meaning a lack of consciousness and judging) of information. Like, I'm okay with looking at that undifferentiated field (the metaphorical Magic Eye 3D image) without seeing "it" at first. Unless I accept external standards that aren't in synch with Ni perception, I'm really fine with that situation, the looking and waiting. In contrast, if I try to describe anything of that field to my INFP partner, she wants to know what it means in a very sharply defined conscious way. And if it isn't defined and conscious like that, she'll start filling in the blanks and generating possible meanings ... like "Maybe it's this over there, that could look like a bear" *point point* ... which then disrupts the waiting, the stillness, that I need to allow the image to show itself.

    And interestingly enough, I wrote the above before really reading this next part, but it seems to fit perfectly with my experience and observations:

    And yeah, Pe (even Pe aux) to me seems to not understand that limbo in between ‘knowing something is there’ and actually being able to guess what it is. It’s almost like- as soon as they suspect ‘something is there’ (and I realize ‘something’ is incredibly vague, but I can’t think of any other way to say it), they’re flooded with ideas about what it might be- especially Pe doms (obviously).
    This resonates very strongly with what my INFP/Ne-aux has described to me when we've discussed why things so often go wrong when I try to share Ni information before I clearly know what it means. It's like, without something to anchor the information, she's almost compelled to start generating possible meanings. And again, in interaction, this can really create difficulty for me because I need the stillness of waiting in what you call limbo and what I called ambiguity. Mine is a much slower, quieter space - it's like I have a need for a certain kind of silence and stillness to allow what's there to emerge, and my INFP is inexorably drawn to fill up that silence with possible meanings as a way to get at what "it" is.

    eta: After discussing this a bit with my INFP, my sense is that in her case at least, the requirement for focus over ambiguity is more of a Fi thing (or at least a Ji thing) than a Ne thing - Ne-aux is serving Fi-dom's requirement of more focus. But the discussion itself was sort of unclear, so not completely sure that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Interesting with the "feels more vivid" than the rest, for I experience a similar phenomenon where I think some information feels like it is heavier than other information, as if there is an added dimension of weight (it sounds strange, but it really isn't).
    I didn't expect you to have a metaphorical "feel" for the information because I've seldom seen INTJs talk in terms of that kind of thing, so this is an interesting surprise! Seems like in both our cases, there is a sense of an added dimension (weight in your case; color, layer of sound underneath, actual additional dimension in mine).

    Also, I've had a bit of an epiphany for the "symbols" said to be characteristic of Ni-types. This always confused me because I thought it was literally seeing a still-image symbol for something, when in fact my symbols are like video bits. I don't always know what they mean, but they feel heavier and more pronounced than other forms of thought when I think about them. I have one prominent one right now where there is a dark figure, who I know is me, facing away from my point of view, as if I'm looking at my own shadowed back, and then about 3 seconds an even darker person comes out of the foreground and puts a hand (the entire arm is colored, but nothing else other than the light-bluish foreground and darker blue background) on the top portion of my back.
    FWIW, I can actually feel some sort of additional gravity to the words when I read your description. Something in my stomach and the hairs on my legs stood up in response. Not a bad response at all, just a visceral one and some sort of humming recognition. I have no idea what it means (which IMO makes sense given the subjectivity of Ni) but the feel of whatever this is seems to translate across a computer screen.

    (this makes me wonder, if a group of Ni-doms got together and described this kind of information to each other, would we consistently feel the extra dimensions from each others' direct descriptions of Ni information? I feel like I've had experiences like this before when other Ni-doms have described images from Ni perception ... like I can tell it's not my area of the landscape but I can still feel the additional dimension of the information).

    Since the purpose of this thread is to demystify Ni, I need to explain that I can dissect the "video-bit" (meaning that it isn't some ridiculous vision) which is more like a product of my imagination anyways (everyone can make a simulation in their imagination). I don't know what it symbolizes right now, but I have some ideas.
    And I know I'm kind of repeating myself here, but I'm a different kind of Ni-dom from you and I have no idea what this means specifically, but I can feel the additional layer in your description across a computer connection and from a screen. I repeat this to underscore something: apparently give our shared dominant function, I already know - viscerally, in feel - that it's not a ridiculous vision. I'm just really glad you decided to go ahead and describe it directly before you added the demystifying part.

    Interestingly, when I change something with my mind's eye about the simulation/video, it doesn't feel right; for instance, trying to illuminate who the darker figure is by filling in the spaces with random people yields an "uncomfortable" result, and it feels more right if I imagine the figure like it originally was, shrouded.
    I have absolutely had this kind of experience! I actually didn't expect anyone else to describe it. On reflection, I think it's a core attribute of Ni information for me. Whether the information is visual or something else if I try to change it, it feels wrong ... and when I return to what it is, it feels right. And sometimes my conscious mind would prefer that it is some other way, but again, it doesn't feel right, it's uncomfortable, if I try to change it. I hadn't actually associated this with Ni before but it fits the overall discussion pretty well IMO.

    By the way, any other Ni-doms experience a compulsion to always know what's coming next or what to expect, at least to have a general idea?
    Yes, I feel that way in relation to the external world. I've associated this with Ni-dom + Je-aux. My inner world is extremely undifferentiated and ambiguous and open (as described in the comment to Z Buck), and I seem to need some sort of balance of structure when it comes to my outer world. My INFP partner has it in reverse: her inner world is quite structured by her Fi value matrix, so her outer world orientation needs an open flow for balance.

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