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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I know what you mean.

    I have not met enough ppl and watched them play to have any real date or anything lol. But the real reason I started noticing it is cause it has to do with their hands.

    There is definately a difference between the movement of an Se dom compared to an Ni dom though. Like even when they're playing, their hands movements are different.

    It has to do with the same thing.

    Like Se is less about thinking and more about going with the flow and dealing with things AS they come.

    Ni's different. It's like....buh. I don't know. More predetermined almost....

    Anyways like I said, hard to explain. So I wont continue.
    Interesting about the hands. I think I maybe understand what you mean about that part. How does it tell you though that Se-doms make choices more consciously? Sorry this may sound very nitpicky-ish. If you tell me in response that you've actually asked Se-doms about the workings of their minds in terms of that, then fine Otherwise I dislike guessing about what goes on in a person's mind.

  2. #72
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Interesting about the hands. I think I maybe understand what you mean about that part. How does it tell you though that Se-doms make choices more consciously? Sorry this may sound very nitpicky-ish. If you tell me in response that you've actually asked Se-doms about the workings of their minds in terms of that, then fine Otherwise I dislike guessing about what goes on in a person's mind.
    The Se said they can predict off of their experience so it's like taking things as they come, but they're still prepared cause their experience. Ni I didn't ask I don't think This was a while ago though. And I can't ask any now.

    The Si I can ask though. He's the best help
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    The Se said they can predict off of their experience so it's like taking things as they come, but they're still prepared cause their experience.
    Yes that's what I talked about earlier, about developing effective patterns, I use them like this. Though not in a really conscious fashion


    Ni I didn't ask I don't think This was a while ago though. And I can't ask any now.
    Too bad hey :P :/


    The Si I can ask though. He's the best help
    Sure, if you want.

  4. #74
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes that's what I talked about earlier, about developing effective patterns, I use them like this. Though not in a really conscious fashion
    Yea, sorry I didn't have time before to explain much.

    It's not a completely conscious process after they have a lot of practice cause it doesn't need to be.

    Anyways this is an example of exactly how my mind works when playing video games, I couldn't find anything better to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

    But if you skip to 56:50 minutes into it, you will see what I mean : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfhQTbcqmA

    That flow of a pattern is what I'm talking about. The "circuit" that he's talking about. That is how I play.

    The Ni dom seemed to do that kind of circuit a little...but was way more flexible than me.

    And Se doms just don't do that.

    Does that clear it up better?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  5. #75
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    I believe this may help to demonstrate how Ni-dom looks from outside...:

    Check what he says @0:42...

    and check where/what he's gazing at @1:18...

    And authentic Fe from @1:30 on...



    There's a definite chemistry between Gandalf and Galadriel in the movie...I do not know if it's the same in the books...

    I wonder what's Galadriel's type...? She seems to know just what to say to build Gandalf up and inspire/motivate him...


    The belowgiven clips demonstrating the chemistry between Gandalf and Galadriel also always give me a chuckle



    Last edited by yeghor; 03-03-2014 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Blue added

  6. #76
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I see it in general, meaning in the cultural system in which I live (I live in the US, which I see as in many ways a cultural child of Europe at its core) overall. Certainly in this forum, but I don't think it's specific to here. The general/cultural pattern I see is a actually two-sided coin: on one side, Ni is trivialized, devalued etc, on the other side it is exotified and mystified/New-Age-ified. Both are routes to distortion and they work together somehow.
    I’ve been thinking about this- I think I know what you mean, but I’m not sure how to describe it.

    Several years ago I had a visceral reaction to reading Piaget’s The Child’s Conception of the World. A problem with Piaget is that there’s no accounting for abstract thinking- he interpreted what children were saying very literally. When children said that the things in dreams “really happened”, Piaget interpreted this as children believing the events in their dreams “really happened” in waking life, outside their dreams. (He does this repeatedly- with all sorts of things, he interprets what they’re saying in a very literal way and mystifies their reasoning skills as being different….when really, imo, it’s just that they haven’t yet refined their ability to articulate subtle distinctions.) I actually got really angry reading the book- it gave me flashbacks to my own childhood and being constantly misunderstood by people (in precisely the way he was misunderstanding).

    One of my earliest memories is of getting angry at my mom and sister because they didn’t understand what I was talking about (I must have been around 4 yo). I kept telling them I wanted to watch a show on TV, and all I could think to say to describe it is “it’s real, but it’s not real.” And I kept trying variations of that: “There were people there, but there weren’t PEOPLE there.” I was talking about cartoons. In retrospect, it’s understandable why they had no idea what I was trying to describe- but I can very clearly remember often getting angry and frustrated to get a reaction like “What’s that? Timmy fell down the well again?” when I’d try to communicate because I felt like I was being clear.

    I have no idea if this is a common problem for Ni doms growing up though. I have always felt like most people seem to be able to take easily communicating for granted- and as such, they expect a certain kind of efficiency (?) that I can’t really keep up with? I’m not sure that makes sense, and it’s not even entirely about communication so much as overall interaction and the ability to make sense of other people’s words and behavior. It’s like there’s this big invisible metronome somewhere and other people don’t have nearly as much trouble keeping up with it as I do (i.e. being told when and how long to focus on something, and being told specifically what to focus on, etc). It’s not that I expect the world to revolve around me, but I’d like to as least make a pocket around myself where I can do things at my own speed- and even that seems difficult sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    That thin slices thing, it sort of sounds like a way of judging, the wikipedia article even uses the word judge. I understang with jungian theory it's not judging but quite honestly this use of terminology is very confusing. If you make an initial assessment and are instantly convinced it's correct, that's a judgement in my book. How in Jung's view could it not be a judgement?
    I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking here. It sounds to me like you’re asking how this could describe Ni when it sounds like a judging process? (If not, disregard the following explanation.) I don’t think Ni is the aspect that scrambles to come up with an explanation- I think Ni is the thing that drops “If A, then Q” on the table and the judging functions then must scramble around to find the linear progression which led from A to Q.

    Everybody does the ‘thin-slicing’ thing. I think that each ‘type’ probably has its own criteria which regularly gets focused on.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I really like your position. I guess I always have the patience to explain my position (and in turn, hear the other person's), it's just that quite a few other people don't have patience to hear it or even consider the idea of listening, let alone consider the idea of explaining their own position instead of just giving up too fast.

    What I could learn better though is, how to figure out some positions of people in some cases, where it's possible to put it together from the data available. Really cool you try to do that.

    Do you feel this limits your Ni too much though? Does it never turn out that it was a good idea trying to figure out what the other person's position REALLY was?
    Maybe a better way of saying it is that I think it’s important to take responsibility for the assumptions we make. Jumping to quick conclusions- and throwing a lot of negative emotional charge at someone because of that hasty conclusion- is (imo) just a shitty way to treat people.

    As an oversimplified example: say someone steps on my foot. I could either instantly react and explain to that person how careless I think it was for them to step on my foot….or I could stop and look for the reasons why it might have happened. If something stands out (like, say- someone on the other side of the person, physically pushing them in my direction) as a cause existing beyond that person, then I can save us both the trouble of that conversation (e.g. “Goddamnit, why are you so careless?!” / “It wasn’t my fault! That person pushed me!!”). Those conversations are so exhausting- I really can’t handle too much interaction with the kinds of people who can’t put that stuff together on their own before saying something.

    I think it’s a bad idea to ‘figure out someone else’s position’ in a non-dialogical sort of way, to make assumptions about someone else’s position and neither talk about it nor listen to any disagreement they have about it, for probably obvious reasons- but specifically what I was talking about was stopping to consider the larger ‘cause and effect’ picture before throwing a bunch of negative emotional charge at someone. It’s important to make sure what we’ve “figured out” actually does match what goes on inside the other person- but I was specifically referring to figuring out how to avoid senselessly throwing negative emotional charge around.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’ve been thinking about this- I think I know what you mean, but I’m not sure how to describe it.

    Several years ago I had a visceral reaction to reading Piaget’s The Child’s Conception of the World. A problem with Piaget is that there’s no accounting for abstract thinking- he interpreted what children were saying very literally. When children said that the things in dreams “really happened”, Piaget interpreted this as children believing the events in their dreams “really happened” in waking life, outside their dreams. (He does this repeatedly- with all sorts of things, he interprets what they’re saying in a very literal way and mystifies their reasoning skills as being different….when really, imo, it’s just that they haven’t yet refined their ability to articulate subtle distinctions.) I actually got really angry reading the book- it gave me flashbacks to my own childhood and being constantly misunderstood by people (in precisely the way he was misunderstanding).One of my earliest memories is of getting angry at my mom and sister because they didn’t understand what I was talking about (I must have been around 4 yo). I kept telling them I wanted to watch a show on TV, and all I could think to say to describe it is “it’s real, but it’s not real.” And I kept trying variations of that: “There were people there, but there weren’t PEOPLE there.” I was talking about cartoons. In retrospect, it’s understandable why they had no idea what I was trying to describe- but I can very clearly remember often getting angry and frustrated to get a reaction like “What’s that? Timmy fell down the well again?” when I’d try to communicate because I felt like I was being clear.

    I have no idea if this is a common problem for Ni doms growing up though. I have always felt like most people seem to be able to take easily communicating for granted- and as such, they expect a certain kind of efficiency (?) that I can’t really keep up with? I’m not sure that makes sense, and it’s not even entirely about communication so much as overall interaction and the ability to make sense of other people’s words and behavior. It’s like there’s this big invisible metronome somewhere and other people don’t have nearly as much trouble keeping up with it as I do (i.e. being told when and how long to focus on something, and being told specifically what to focus on, etc). It’s not that I expect the world to revolve around me, but I’d like to as least make a pocket around myself where I can do things at my own speed- and even that seems difficult sometimes.
    Oh, Z Buck, I was actually in the kitchen making coffee before I turned on the computer and before I read your comment here, thinking about what seems to be this very topic as it relates to my life now in a very personal/immediate way. In fact, I realize now I woke up thinking about this. Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding what you mean, though.

    So ... On one layer, I've been wondering why I can't stand having my words and articulated experiences translated back to me or others after being run through a framework that's alien to me (and thus distorted). I mean, it gets to me more than most things can. On another layer, I've been struggling with trying to lift some pretty important stuff into consciousness to see if I should try to articulate it to someone I love, but feel like it's taking me so long just to pinpoint what it is in a way I could try to speak. I actually was thinking about that piece in terms of speed, like I can feel so clearly what's going on but I cannot for the life of me figure out if or how to actually articulate it in a way that has any chance of being understood for what it is - and this is taking so long. And on a third layer, the actual specific issue that I'm struggling with actually comes from a conflict based on this very pattern to begin with, me saying things that the other person really didn't get, things that were fed back to me in twisted form and this was weeks ago and I still haven't been able to pin down what I would say about it if I would say anything.

    I do think speed may be one of the conceptual keys here. I'm thinking of the discussion in this thread - I'm paraphrasing here - of the Ni-dom self as "blank" and receiving constant dabs of ink (information) that can cohere into meaningful patterns in our perception based on our specific location (specific location is a big part of how I think about subjectivity for Ni). I compare the speed at which I process information to, say, my INFP partner. Compared to me, she is very quick to conclude that she knows what's happening. She has said she "fills in the blanks" using various tools (Si database with patterned data from her past experiences, for example) to come to conclusions. I go so much slower. I can't force/create patterns I can only let them emerge, and they do so at their own speed regardless of what I want. And then trying to get that perception into a form where I can actually articulate it, and then having that communication actually understood for what it is ... yeah.

  8. #78
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    *nods* makes sense. But at the same time ... if I understand it correctly, Ne also has a "perceive and go with the flow" quality that's like the other side of the coin. (the metaphor of currents flowing like on a river and perceiving or following them somehow). In feel, it seems like it's a similar kind of thing as the Ni blankness but just from some other angle or something. Same category, different specifics. I could be wrong. eta: or maybe its more of a mirror image: Ni combines blankness and active approach to action, Ne combines flooding and passive approach to action. Or maybe neither of these things.
    @Werebudgie, @OrangeAppled --
    Ne is like the mathematical method of simulated evolutionary methods: take a gazillion trials, and compare the results of each one, and with each comparison, keep the one that does a little better job, to zero in on the correct answer. You start out all over the map, and don't know where in advance where you're gonna go.
    Ni is like a "steepest descents" method: suddenly *knowing* the shape of things, and from that *knowing* as a result, the direction you ought to go, to find the optimal answer.
    They arrive at the same place, but each using a completely different method.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  9. #79
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    lol
    What kind of contradictions for example?
    I can't think of a direct example. But it seems a lot of Ni-isms are "paradoxes".
    Just for contrast, a Ne type can hold several possibilities to be, well, possible, even if they contradict. This is more "shallow" in a sense, so it's not so hard to grasp. But with Ni, and arguably Si, there's an ability to see it not as possibility, but reality. I guess it's just the experience of reality being subjective, a matter of interpretation more than objective fact.

    IMO, this makes the Ni+Te combo more interesting in a person because the functions are almost checking each other. I suppose that's what auxiliary functions do (as a complement & "balance"), but it's very obvious in that particular one. Or perhaps there's an advantage that they prove their "checks" to others with Te. NFs have such a disadvantage there. Even INTPs have more frustration.

    I don't think either MBTI or socionics is "better" on the J/P thing. I think they both got it wrong.
    I find each limited, but insightful, and when combined, do a pretty good job of explaining the connection between mindset & visible personality. Not complete or without flaw by any means.


    When describing Ni itself, it shouldn't be including any MBTI J though, after all that's the Te/Fe, supposedly. So that part didn't make a lot of sense honestly.
    The point I was making is that MBTI J is NOT just a result of Te/Fe, but a result of a whole mindset which includes Pi. The J outer personality comes from Je + Pi, not just Pi. This is probably why you see & agree with the below.

    Internally, they may not experience it as judgement, hence the hesitancy to not express it until it's more of a justifiable conclusion (?). But they do seem to experience it as a reality, which has implied judgement even if they detach it from being their own mind's conclusion. It's like looking at an object, say a blue coffee mug, and noting it is blue. You wouldn't say you are judging it is blue, as you don't experience your mind as reasoning over it, but still you assigning a judgement category. It seems to me that Pi-dom have a way of "seeing" in their own mind that is just like the Se types sees the object & really comes to an immediate conclusion that it is XYZ. It is reality to them not a choice... and in being unquestioned, it's really a judgment of sorts of what is real & what is not.
    Yes this is what I was originally talking about
    There are characteristics of MBTI "J" in Pi thinking. It's not just a result of Je.

    Hmm, I'm not sure I understood you here. Do you mean that when IxxP's talk about stuff, other people may see it as judgements while they weren't really?
    Yes


    Well why don't you see it as "blank"? After all, your conscious mind is empty. The non-coded stuff is somewhat unconscious. Also, when I don't think at all, which happens pretty often, it's all "blank" in the sense you are using the word. I just see the world and stuff and not think. And the same when reading a fiction book, etc. etc.
    It doesn't feel "empty", just formless. Perhaps we are not speaking of the same thing & I don't really experience what you do.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #80
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I think this description I have stolen from PerC might be of interest in this thread.

    Ni
    Ni is a sub-conscious filtering and collecting of correlations; it filters incidences to detect underlying principals, laws of nature, or reoccurring themes. It can be experienced as a sense of something that causes one to act on a hunch. Sometimes these correlations coalesce into symbols ahead of the Ni user having any explanation for why. Ni users often express a sense of storing up or mentally flagging data and experiences that can be fully digested later, or that they trust will be available for useful recall at an appropriate time.

    Ni dominant personalities often seek time to bring sub-conscious correlations out in the open, handing these hunches or symbols off to what Jung labels judging functions; this can be done internally or outside themselves for conscious interpretation, to be verified as causative, relevant or true. Conversely, this “sense of how things work” can make them quick to intuitively grasp a process without the time it takes for a full walk through or a detailed explanation.
    I think this description is a fair assessment, but what I find incredibly intriguing is the portion I have underlined. I never thought this would be a connection to a Cognitive Function, but I've always done this, and do this frequently. When I see new information or hear something important, I can actually "flag" that information and tell myself to recall it at a certain date, and it would indeed pop into my mind at the exact time I needed it (once I realized I could do this, I began thinking of things to remember when I lay on my deathbed, and now I'm worried what might surface there). I can tell myself in the morning that I need to get something done tomorrow morning, and I can and probably would forget about it for the rest of the day, but then come morning I would instantly recall it. To add to this, I had an interesting morning when I was running late for something and I was trying to remember what all I needed, and then everything I realized I needed popped into my head like a bombardment of information, and I knew exactly what needed to be done in what order to ensure that I reach the place on time. Anyone else resonate with this at all?

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