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  1. #61
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Is this true? The way I have come to view introverted vs extroverted functions is that introverted ones are more mysterious to the outside observer. It's happening on the inside and is unique to the individual using it, so people have a hard time understanding. That doesn't mean it's more complex, just more mysterious and less apparent.

    Also, introverted functions tend to be more linear. This is probably largely because of the rapidly changing nature of the external world when compared to ones internal thoughts. We can much better control the diversions that take place in our heads than we can all the new stimuli we're constantly bombarded with on the outside. That makes extroverted functions quicker, farther reaching in multiple directions, and their complexity is found in the sheer amount of different factors and options it can hold and process at a given time. Their divergent, far-reaching energy shouldn't be interpreted as simplicity.

    This leads into introverted functions being more linear. They're able to build upon one or a few choice tracks of thought over long periods of time. They're slower moving, more concentrated energy. Sure, maybe over time, there's a point at which an introverted function has been pruned and developed for so long that it surpasses the extroverted functions' capacity for information held at a given time, but for the most part, I'd argue that it's the linear, concentrated nature of introverted functions paired with their somewhat hidden nature that makes them seem more complex.
    That sounds about right...
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  2. #62
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    I think Ni is very much like an entire collection of video games stacked across many shelves with varying levels and shifting contexts in action.

    Xbox 360

  3. #63
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I believe Ni gazes on what comes thru Fe and Se in INFJs and Te and Se in INTJs...Ni gazes on what's within...I think that also gives Ni-dom function some kind of super-ego role...an inner critic of some sorts cause it also gazes on the self of the Ni-dom person...I don't know if it's the same for INTJs...Perhaps INTJs berate themselves more for ending up incorrect rather than for moralistic reasons...Anyway, INFJs, I believe, analyze the information allowed within by using Ni-Ti functions...Ni-dom function does the overall assessment whereas Ti-tert does the detail work?

    Ne other hand gazes on what's outside the Ne-dom person...To be able to perceive more, it needs to invoke more reactions (i.e. information) from the external object...So Ne-doms use Ne to seek out more information from the external object and then analyze that data thru Ti in case ENTPs and thru Fi in case of ENFPs...In such a use, I think Ne does not serve as a superego...

    Assuming that Ni-dom function is related to superego, those who have Ni-inferior would be very irritated with or allergic to superego...They wouldn't like being morally confined...

    I also likened Ni to a passive sonar and Ne an active sonar in another thread so I am putting it forward once more for discussion...perhaps it may spark some more ideas...

    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    It may be related with the lack of strong Fi function (i.e. internal/personal values, a finely defined sense of self and ego)...INFJs' egos are more malleable wrt to a person with strong Fi...

    And I feel the same with Ni-Ti internal analysis mechanism...I do not store detailed information, I just momentarily analyze what's within me at that moment and then discard it once it's analyzed...I think I store the result of the analysis in some kind of essential pattern form for easier storage and recall for future use though...

    So Ni-dom function feels to me like a synthesizer of some sorts...By synthesizer I do not mean the music instrument but a device that compiles up relatively high amounts of data...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-01-2014 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Blue added

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I think Ni is very much like an entire collection of video games stacked across many shelves with varying levels and shifting contexts in action.

    Xbox 360
    I could actually see this as Si

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I always dismiss the information. And I'm starting to realize one of the reasons is because I just don't sit still long enough to let things come to me. But I also have to think everything through. Everything must have evidence. I have been trying to let myself trust it more though. I find it to be difficult. :/
    I find it difficult too. And it's my dominant function and very much home to me perceptually! The high cost of the assimilation is how much I've internalized pushing against such trust. I know I did the best I could when I chose to assimilate, but undoing the harm that's come from that path is a long and difficult process for me. I began this process in 2001 and am nowhere near the kind of reflex-based flexible trust-based movement that is truly organic to me. Getting there, though.

    It's difficult to describe by writing it, but Ni even visually looks less reaction-based than Se. (I dated an Ni dom for over 6 years, and an Se dom for 4....we played A LOT of Halo. But the Ni dom almost always beat everyone, hands down.)

    Not that any of that is real data or anything....but I am just saying that visually....their flow even looks different. Just thought it was interesting.
    Could you describe more about the how the flow visually looks for Ni and for Se? I think this is really interesting.

  6. #66
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Is this true? The way I have come to view introverted vs extroverted functions is that introverted ones are more mysterious to the outside observer. It's happening on the inside and is unique to the individual using it, so people have a hard time understanding. That doesn't mean it's more complex, just more mysterious and less apparent.

    Also, introverted functions tend to be more linear. This is probably largely because of the rapidly changing nature of the external world when compared to ones internal thoughts. We can much better control the diversions that take place in our heads than we can all the new stimuli we're constantly bombarded with on the outside. That makes extroverted functions quicker, farther reaching in multiple directions, and their complexity is found in the sheer amount of different factors and options it can hold and process at a given time. Their divergent, far-reaching energy shouldn't be interpreted as simplicity.

    This leads into introverted functions being more linear. They're able to build upon one or a few choice tracks of thought over long periods of time. They're slower moving, more concentrated energy. Sure, maybe over time, there's a point at which an introverted function has been pruned and developed for so long that it surpasses the extroverted functions' capacity for information held at a given time, but for the most part, I'd argue that it's the linear, concentrated nature of introverted functions paired with their somewhat hidden nature that makes them seem more complex.
    I dont' disagree with what you're saying. I'm taking what you're saying as it looks more complex because of how linear it is, but it's not really more complex...Is that right?

    I think we need to substitute the word "complex" with the word "depth"

    The introverted functions are rediculously deep and vast water....I could swim ALL DAY, ALL year in a single thought sometimes (or linear stream that that though provokes.) But Se on the other hand...1) thinks, 2) loses patience, 3) then needs new stimulation. (I know that's not the exact process...but I'm simplifying cause I don't have much time right now.) They're (the extraverted functions) not shallow waters...but more...slight waters. They just are not as involved. Hmm. I'm hoping you're getting my point, because I'm not coming up with many examples right now. Sorry.

    Anyways to quote myself from the "Why do ppl hate INTJ's?" thread:

    In a similar way, I think that most extraverted functions do not have the patience to wait around for their introverted counterparts. Sort of like Amargith said. So to continue the thought...Ne doesn't have patience for Ni, Te doesn't have patience for Ti, Fe doesn't have patience for Fi, and Se doesn't have patience for Si.
    ^ This is what I mean. There is definately a difference between the extraverted and introverted functions. And it's sort of related to depth and slightness.

    It's the same reason why many Fi users think that Fe is shallow.

    In a sense...Fe is only looking at the surface. (In literal terms...) It's looking at your mannerisms on the outside. But an introverted feeler can know what another person is feeling by the mannerisms AND it looks deeper. Does this makes sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I find it difficult too. And it's my dominant function and very much home to me perceptually! The high cost of the assimilation is how much I've internalized pushing against such trust. I know I did the best I could when I chose to assimilate, but undoing the harm that's come from that path is a long and difficult process for me. I began this process in 2001 and am nowhere near the kind of reflex-based flexible trust-based movement that is truly organic to me. Getting there, though.
    Ugh I know! I get frustrated when I don't trust it. Which is often. It's almost like I've been ignoring it for so long I don't even know how to identify it

    I have been workin on this too. But not near as long as you.

    Could you describe more about the how the flow visually looks for Ni and for Se? I think this is really interesting.
    Just that it seems to me, that Ni has a pattern. Almost like it repeats its pattern so much that it becomes just what they do. It's a flow. They perfect the flow. It's all about perfection as a whole.

    Se. Much more reactionary. They say "Oh A is happening, I must do B!" They seem to be more consciously deciding where to go. It's more about perfection right here and now with every move.

    I know that when I play I need that pattern.

    It's really hard to explain. lol
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I don't know. The practical implications are where I let the peasantry frolic.
    lol


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Irrational is not really a great descriptor for any type; although I think the idea of accepting contradictions as part of reality gets hinted at with that term, and so it does provide insight into what perceiving mentalities can be like.
    What kind of contradictions for example?


    So in Jung's view, a rational type uses lines of reasoning to come to a conclusion. A perceiving type "sees" or is "aware" of things, be it objects or concepts. That certainly can be a conclusion or judgement.
    I agree that what these Ni-dom describe sounds like a form of judgment. It's part of what constitutes the "J mentality" in MBTI. Pi is paired with Je & together they form "J personalities" as far as outward behavior goes. This is also why socionics is WRONG :P .
    I don't think either MBTI or socionics is "better" on the J/P thing. I think they both got it wrong.

    When describing Ni itself, it shouldn't be including any MBTI J though, after all that's the Te/Fe, supposedly. So that part didn't make a lot of sense honestly.


    Internally, they may not experience it as judgement, hence the hesitancy to not express it until it's more of a justifiable conclusion (?). But they do seem to experience it as a reality, which has implied judgement even if they detach it from being their own mind's conclusion. It's like looking at an object, say a blue coffee mug, and noting it is blue. You wouldn't say you are judging it is blue, as you don't experience your mind as reasoning over it, but still you assigning a judgement category. It seems to me that Pi-dom have a way of "seeing" in their own mind that is just like the Se types sees the object & really comes to an immediate conclusion that it is XYZ. It is reality to them not a choice... and in being unquestioned, it's really a judgment of sorts of what is real & what is not.
    Yes this is what I was originally talking about


    But that's also why IxxPs may find vocalized thoughts taken as judgements when they are explorations - because of the prevalent Je mentality. I may hesitate less than an IxxJ because my mentality is not to order things outwardly, so it doesn't occur to me a verbalized thought is seen as a judgment; this especially gets INxPs in trouble sometimes :P. Also, INxPs may question whether or not what is "seen" is undeniably there :P.
    Hmm, I'm not sure I understood you here. Do you mean that when IxxP's talk about stuff, other people may see it as judgements while they weren't really?


    Um, no.... My mind is pretty colorful & "populated". I'm a visual thinker & I have an inner dialogue too. I can think without words, for sure, in visuals or formless abstraction. I don't consider the latter to be "blank".
    Well why don't you see it as "blank"? After all, your conscious mind is empty. The non-coded stuff is somewhat unconscious. Also, when I don't think at all, which happens pretty often, it's all "blank" in the sense you are using the word. I just see the world and stuff and not think. And the same when reading a fiction book, etc. etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    And refuse to mistake dirt for gold.
    Yeah me too

    I don't know what's better though, make the mistake of not noticing something or make the mistake of noticing something where there isn't anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Just that it seems to me, that Ni has a pattern. Almost like it repeats its pattern so much that it becomes just what they do. It's a flow. They perfect the flow. It's all about perfection as a whole.

    Se. Much more reactionary. They say "Oh A is happening, I must do B!" They seem to be more consciously deciding where to go. It's more about perfection right here and now with every move.

    I know that when I play I need that pattern.

    It's really hard to explain. lol
    Hm I don't see Se as something involving conscious decision at all. Things, including decisions on what to do etc, just "happen". It's unconscious processing, gut stuff. It's not Ni though because it's about this in-the-moment stuff based on the context of the current environment.

    When I play a game I do the Se reactionary thing first but over time I develop effective patterns and just use those. Isn't everyone like that, though?

  8. #68
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Isn't everyone like that, though?
    Not from what I've seen
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Not from what I've seen
    Well ok, not everyone then perhaps, I still feel though that this can't be categorized so neatly under the MBTI system.

  10. #70
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well ok, not everyone then perhaps, I still feel though that this can't be categorized so neatly under the MBTI system.
    I know what you mean.

    I have not met enough ppl and watched them play to have any real date or anything lol. But the real reason I started noticing it is cause it has to do with their hands.

    There is definately a difference between the movement of an Se dom compared to an Ni dom though. Like even when they're playing, their hands movements are different.

    It has to do with the same thing.

    Like Se is less about thinking and more about going with the flow and dealing with things AS they come.

    Ni's different. It's like....buh. I don't know. More predetermined almost....

    Anyways like I said, hard to explain. So I wont continue.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

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