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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    I don't think Ni can be understood intellectually since doing so requires some kind of reasoning.Ni are sort of like the Zen koans which required the subject to suspend all kind of reasoning and instead reconcile contradictions in order to reach an intuitive understanding of the nature of reality.
    Yes yes yes freaking yes.

    Jung stated that introverted irrational functions(Si,Ni) were the hardest to explain to others since it stand in glaring contrast to our current mode of operation that values logical and rationalistic processes.
    How useful that Jung took the larger cultural context into account. (And as I understand it, both feeling and thinking are considered rationalistic processes in the cognitive function model.)

    From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest
    fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our
    civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate
    overprizing of instruction by means of word and method.
    Go Jung! This puts words to something very important IMO.

    Ni/Ni-Se perception does yield action: that is, if we allow it freedom to be what it is, it would show in how we how we move and act in our lives. Ni/Ni-Se perception doesn't yield F or T narrative: rationalistic explanations in words and related forms of communication - rationalistic narratives. By trying to assimilate ourselves into a cultural system requiring us (Ni-doms) to apply such narratives to our perception in order not to be [alone, crazy, wrong, etc etc etc, all the threats about what will happen if we don't assimilate], we can undermine and/or block how it actually works, and it seems to me that we often do it with the assumption that it's for our own good to do such a thing.

  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for sharing that example, Hard. The problem I am having is that I think every human being can relate to this example of feeling. So, is it about frequency, do you have these feelings all the time? Or, is it that when anyone feels this sensation it is Ni?

    Appreciate any extra thoughts you might have on that. Or another example?
    This is always my reaction in these threads about Ni. All of a sudden, Se & Si seem massively more interesting & exotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    I don't think Ni can be understood intellectually since doing so requires some kind of reasoning.Ni are sort of like the Zen koans which required the subject to suspend all kind of reasoning and instead reconcile contradictions in order to reach an intuitive understanding of the nature of reality. Jung stated that introverted irrational functions(Si,Ni) were the hardest to explain to others since it stand in glaring contrast to our current mode of operation that values logical and rationalistic processes.
    It's interesting how people often apply this "difficult to grasp" aspect of Pi to Ni, and less so to Si. People are very comfortable accepting simplistic explanations of Si (perhaps because Si is more common in people), but seem very disappointed when Ni is explained simply. Yet time & again, I see Ni-doms explain themselves rather simply. And other people (including me) are like, "huh, that's IT?". I suppose it's because the Ni type is often touted as something so mysterious & complex, yet it jives more with my experience of them that there's a kind internal blankness there.

    Any complexity in Pi types, from the way they describe their inner experience, is more in the results (often because of the contradictions which defy logic yet reflect reality) than the process, perhaps because so much of it is unconscious.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #23
    Junior Member Susurrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    yet it jives more with my experience of them that there's a kind internal blankness there.
    Yes, there's this sort of blankness with Ni doms, I've noticed too. That's a good way of putting it. Kind of like a blank canvas that constantly gets smudges of ink and out of nowhere an image takes shape. The shape may mean nothing but for the subject the shape transforms it into something that has meaning to that individual.

    To be fair, though, I don't think that Ni has anything mystical or mysterious about it. It's very simple, in fact. It's just that it becomes hard to explain. Akin to explaining to someone the process of breathing with your lungs. Simple, yet difficult to articulate.

    On the subject of Si, I don't think most people know the intricacies of Si that well. You're right, most people brush off Si as being too simplistic and less interesting than the other functions mainly because of the way it has been portrayed in type descriptions as relating to detail, memory and tradition. Nevertheless, it's a fairly interesting process if studied deeply.

  4. #24
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is always my reaction in these threads about Ni. All of a sudden, Se & Si seem massively more interesting & exotic.
    Indeed. It seems like we're conflating two definitions of intuition here.

    I mean, I can touch a scratch lottery ticket and tell if it's a winner. I'm at a cash register buying something unrelated, no intention to buy a ticket, see a ticket, know it's a winner. Touch it, and it feels like a winner. When I know it, it is. (Wish that happened for a biggie win lol!)

    An Ni user would say it's Ni though?

    ..... it jives more with my experience of them that there's a kind internal blankness there.
    Yes, I feel it too, rather, I feel nothing too. I have explored the depths of that inner realm many a time. They don't live there. I used to think I just had to go deeper. By my late twenties, I knew that wasn't the case.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  5. #25
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Indeed. It seems like we're conflating two definitions of intuition here.

    I mean, I can touch a scratch lottery ticket and tell if it's a winner. I'm at a cash register buying something unrelated, no intention to buy a ticket, see a ticket, know it's a winner. Touch it, and it feels like a winner. When I know it, it is. (Wish that happened for a biggie win lol!)

    An Ni user would say it's Ni though?



    Yes, I feel it too, rather, I feel nothing too. I have explored the depths of that inner realm many a time. They don't live there. I used to think I just had to go deeper. By my late twenties, I knew that wasn't the case.
    internal blankness?
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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    -Magic Qwan

  6. #26
    Junior Member Susurrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I mean, I can touch a scratch lottery ticket and tell if it's a winner. I'm at a cash register buying something unrelated, no intention to buy a ticket, see a ticket, know it's a winner. Touch it, and it feels like a winner. When I know it, it is. (Wish that happened for a biggie win lol!)

    An Ni user would say it's Ni though?
    Ah you see, you're indeed not describing Ni in that example but a hunch. Hunches and Ni are not the same thing, you seem to be describing the former not the latter. Hunches have this gut feeling involved that something is going to happen while Ni is a vision/realization of unrelated events colliding into one possibility.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    Yes, there's this sort of blankness with Ni doms, I've noticed too. That's a good way of putting it. Kind of like a blank canvas that constantly gets smudges of ink and out of nowhere an image takes shape. The shape may mean nothing but for the subject the shape transforms it into something that has meaning to that individual.
    This makes a lot of sense to me, though I never thought about it that way. It seems to link into the mode of a perceiver, or maybe specifically an introverted perceiver. (Possibly quite puzzling or otherwise notable for anyone looking for a presence/self defined by the standard of, say, dominant Fi).

    eta: @Magic Qwan, does it make sense to you to see it as a lack of the kind of self that would be defined if using Fi as a standard for "something there"? (basically an introverted-judging take on introverted-perceiving inner realm)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    Ah you see, you're indeed not describing Ni in that example but a hunch. Hunches and Ni are not the same thing, you seem to be describing the former not the latter. Hunches have this gut feeling involved that something is going to happen while Ni is a vision/realization of unrelated events colliding into one possibility.
    But Ni can communicate through visceral sense (I call it a sense-metaphor, the use of the body's visceral sense to communicate unconscious information), so maybe it gets confusing in description.

  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    Yes, there's this sort of blankness with Ni doms, I've noticed too. That's a good way of putting it. Kind of like a blank canvas that constantly gets smudges of ink and out of nowhere an image takes shape. The shape may mean nothing but for the subject the shape transforms it into something that has meaning to that individual.

    To be fair, though, I don't think that Ni has anything mystical or mysterious about it. It's very simple, in fact. It's just that it becomes hard to explain. Akin to explaining to someone the process of breathing with your lungs. Simple, yet difficult to articulate.

    On the subject of Si, I don't think most people know the intricacies of Si that well. You're right, most people brush off Si as being too simplistic and less interesting than the other functions mainly because of the way it has been portrayed in type descriptions as relating to detail, memory and tradition. Nevertheless, it's a fairly interesting process if studied deeply.
    I notice many Eastern philosophies promote that form of meditation where one clears out the mind & lets realizations come to them. It seems like these approaches come from Ni-dom - coaching people to adopt their mentality.

    It is hard to comprehend such perpetual blankness as the default state, as opposed to an occasional method. It's a paradox of being complicated in its simplicity, mainly cuz you just cant believe it's so simple.

    Ne is almost quite opposite - it's FLOODING. And then with Ji you have to tangle it out & harmonize the inconsistencies. And there are lots of sudden insights & connections, but it's from filling up the mind & using stuff as springboards for entirely new concepts, not emptying out the mind.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Ne is almost quite opposite - it's FLOODING.
    *nods* makes sense. But at the same time ... if I understand it correctly, Ne also has a "perceive and go with the flow" quality that's like the other side of the coin. (the metaphor of currents flowing like on a river and perceiving or following them somehow). In feel, it seems like it's a similar kind of thing as the Ni blankness but just from some other angle or something. Same category, different specifics. I could be wrong. eta: or maybe its more of a mirror image: Ni combines blankness and active approach to action, Ne combines flooding and passive approach to action. Or maybe neither of these things.

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