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  1. #11
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I have put a lot of effort into trying to fill "the gaps" for a long time, as it leads people to take me more seriously.
    Can you share a "real-life" example?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  2. #12
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Can you share a "real-life" example?
    If I get an insight, idea, etc. out of nowhere, I take pause. I sit, wait, and think "where did this come from?". I think to see if it is valid, backable, etc. I don't just shout out an insight or something that comes to me without being able to see the threads of where it came from.

    Here's an example. While I was playing Humans Vs. Zombies a few games ago (think of it like a game of hide n' seek + tag), I was walking along, and suddenly I had this overwhelming feeling that there was someone behind a wall hiding. I could not explain it, reason it, etc. I just *knew* it. However, there is absolutely no way that it could have come from nowehere. I must have seen, heard, felt. etc someone presence to be behind there moments before, and it simply bypassed my filters. It turns out I was correct, there was someone. However I didn't just leave it. I pondered it, and thought of what could have triggered this thought. I wasn't able to fully pinpoint it. However, after speaking with the guy who charged me (he missed), I surmized I must have seen him dart around the corner while I was scanning the area. There, I have some sort of solid evidence.

    In essence, I train myself to look for the "why" behind these insights. I don't take them at face value, and I only accept "solid" things that I can observe and others can observe that would create something that Ni sees.

    Edit: This also really highlights how terribly un-selfaware Ni is.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  3. #13
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It seems to me that pausing on Ni (Ni-Se) information like that might have a downside in two ways:

    1. Timing of response: Had that example not been a game but something more real, waiting to speak or act on that information could have been a problem. Seems to me that some situations and/or ways of moving function best as a sort of dance of response without cognition.

    2. Sometimes the other information isn't available. In that example, you spoke with the guy who charged you and got additional information, but some situations don't offer that resource or other information that can help explain the perception. Lacking that additional information, the perception still perceived true and the information was still correct, but could or would have been discarded or at least downgraded in some significant way.

    I guess it comes down to what side anyone chooses to err on. On one side, there's the "it could be wrong information" possibility, or something along those lines. On the other side, there's a loss of quick response time, possible loss of actual information, extra energy expenditure, and a loss of a certain elastic dancing flexibility that can come with moving in response to Ni/Ni-Se information without conscious understanding of - and/or ability to articulate to others and have them observe - its source or its why. I myself have spent decades erring on the "don't accept Ni/Ni-Se information I perceive as true until I and others can observe it in the external world" side, and am at the point where I have decided that for me, the cost of such a practice is now too high to continue it. I do wonder how many of us who are Ni-doms have decided to err on the side of default initial distrust of our own perception because of how non-Ni-doms respond when we speak or act directly from that space.

  4. #14
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It seems to me that pausing on Ni (Ni-Se) information until it can be seen cognitively might have a downside in two ways:

    1. Timing of response: Had that example not been a game but something more real, waiting to speak or act on that information could have been a problem. Seems to me that some situations and/or ways of moving function best as a sort of dance of response without cognition.

    2. Sometimes the other information isn't available. In that example, you spoke with the guy who charged you and got additional information, but some situations don't offer that resource or other information that can help explain the perception. Lacking that additional information, the perception still perceived true and the information was still correct, but could or would have been discarded or at least downgraded in some significant way.

    I guess it comes down to what side anyone chooses to err on. On one side, there's the "it could be wrong information" possibility, or something along those lines. On the other side, there's a loss of quick response time, possible loss of actual information, extra energy expenditure, and a loss of a certain elastic dancing flexibility that can come with moving in respond to Ni/Ni-Se information without conscious understanding of its source or its why. I myself have spent decades erring on the "don't accept Ni/Ni-Se information I perceive as true until I and others can observe it in the external world" side, and am at the point where I have decided that for me, the cost of such a practice is now too high to continue it. I do wonder how many of us who are Ni-doms have decided to err on the side of default initial distrust of our own perception because of how non-Ni-doms respond when we speak or act directly from that space.
    It's not perfect. I'm an Ni-dom; I am limited in what I am able to do. I am simply trying to improve upon the skills I have and to make the best of it.

    I still do trust Ni in some cases (in particular when I am forced to, or it's truly implicit). The main point is, by training myself to look further, I am developing and growing as a person. I am not going to be binary and stick to one way or another though. I have been on the extreme a few years ago where I flat out rejected all Ni, like all of it. I started getting somatoform symptoms from the sheer mental pressure I put myself under. I backed off a lot. The best way is to adjust as needed be for any given situation. What ever will give the best results for what you are dealing with, is how one should operate.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  5. #15
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Here's an example. While I was playing Humans Vs. Zombies a few games ago (think of it like a game of hide n' seek + tag), I was walking along, and suddenly I had this overwhelming feeling that there was someone behind a wall hiding. I could not explain it, reason it, etc. I just *knew* it.
    Thanks for sharing that example, Hard. The problem I am having is that I think every human being can relate to this example of feeling. So, is it about frequency, do you have these feelings all the time? Or, is it that when anyone feels this sensation it is Ni?

    Appreciate any extra thoughts you might have on that. Or another example?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #16
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    Metaperspective.

    More?

    The orientation leads to a tendency to try to tip things over in an attempt to figure out what's "really" going on. Sometimes, that orientation digs deep and finds gold beneath the surface; at other times, it mistakes dirt and gravel for gold.

    It may lead to an attraction to symbols and signs due to the fact that they represent something--that there's something going on with them, almost by definition. It may also lead to confidence in a future trajectory, as the thing that's 'going on' often points to a process or trend.

    It's often a subconscious and instinctual tendency, like anyone's natural orientation, and so it can give a "gut feeling" in its own way.

  7. #17
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    In Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink, he explains “thin-slicing”: how answers/insight can surface instantly from the unconscious and how/when to trust it. I think it’s excellent instruction for how/when to trust Ni. Because I totally agree with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It totally manifests like this for me:

    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly View Post

    I think Fe actually pushes me to ignore it when/where I can’t effectively explain it- for the reason Hard mentioned (credibility) but also because the urge to be fair often overrides the urge to give it much weight where I can't effectively explain it. It’s taken me years to learn that ignoring it isn’t really an option- it never goes away and only gets stronger (ultimately becomes more of a problem) the more I try to ignore it (except on those occasions where it came from misunderstanding, in which case it does go away- but that’s more the exception than the rule).

    In Gladwell’s book, he explains that when we question initial assessments- that’s where things can go wrong. We start confabulating reasons for why we think we know it, and that can lead us astray because we believe the confabulations. [I’ll try to come back with a better explanation later if/when I have time- but I second the point I think Werebudgie is trying to make. While I think being able to explain how we got from A to Q to other people is important, I also think there’s value in learning to trust something is *probably* true even when we can’t immediately explain it. It's a hard call- because I've dealt with batshit Ni in others (where they just *believe* their incredibly wrong insight) and I loathe the idea of being 'that person' myself.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    In Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink, he explains “thin-slicing”: how answers/insight can surface instantly from the unconscious and how/when to trust it. I think it’s excellent instruction for how/when to trust Ni.
    IMO that's really interesting!

    I think Fe actually pushes me to ignore it when/where I can’t effectively explain it- for the reason Hard mentioned (credibility) but also because the urge to be fair often overrides the urge to give it much weight where I can't effectively explain it.
    @Z Buck McFate, What does the "urge to be fair" mean for you - like, how does it show up in practice or could you expand on that some more? (I want to make sure I understand what you mean)

    In Gladwell’s book, he explains that when we question initial assessments- that’s where things can go wrong. We start confabulating reasons for why we think we know it, and that can lead us astray because we believe the confabulations. [I’ll try to come back with a better explanation later if/when I have time- but I second the point I think Werebudgie is trying to make. While I think being able to explain how we got from A to Q to other people is important, I also think there’s value in learning to trust something is *probably* true even when we can’t immediately explain it.]
    I've been trying to figure out a way to articulate that (bolded) point in writing, but haven't quite been able to. I appreciate you bringing it up and into visibility. It think it's related to something that's been bubbling just under the surface for me. I don't know if I'll be able to describe it but will try:

    Ni/Ni-Se information can very usefully guide my movements, one movement to the next. It can give me a very accurate sense for the best (most centered/aligned) action for me given my environment. But there seems to be a lot of external pressure, in my case legitimized and internalized via Fe-aux, for me to do something else with that Ni-Se information - something like creating a narrative to explain what's going on and through that process, trying to get other people's permission or validation before I can act on my perception. Basically assessing Ni-Se information with an extroverted judging function and interacting with that perception on Je terms.

    But such judging narratives aren't part of Ni/Ni-Se perception. Letting go of those externally imposed standards - the imposed requirement that I have to be able to apply judging functions to Ni-Se perception before I can act on the perceptual information - is an interesting experience for me. To the extent that I can allow myself to do so, letting go of those imposed requirements feels like a relief to me, feels like I have been trying to do something to Ni/Ni-Se perception that has distorted it. Letting go of the distortion feels really viscerally right to me. The problem comes in communicating with others from that perceptual space. I can try to use words for attempted description of what I perceive, but it's usually in metaphor, images, visceral/gut feel. Most often, that stuff either won't make sense to other people or will be pulled by them into being a judging narrative to the point where the narrative takes center stage and the actual information is distorted beyond usefulness for guiding action (when for me, the point of the words would be a "best description at the moment/best I can come up with in words right now" for functional communication, and not a judging narrative).

    It's a hard call- because I've dealt with batshit Ni in others (where they just *believe* their incredibly wrong insight) and I loathe the idea of being 'that person' myself.
    I haven't dealt with batshit Ni in others, but I have a similar, though probably not identical, loathing related to not wanting to be crazy, deluded etc. It can be a very powerful self-policing function IMO.

    ------------------

    Overall, there seems to be a lot of push push push, both subtle and explicit, for people with strong Ni to second-guess that perception, to publicly and perhaps repeatedly acknowledge it can be crazy and/or wrong, to try to justify it in terms that other people can understand, etc. Basically to experience and interact with our own perception from the default assumption that it is crazy or wrong (crazy or wrong until/unless proven not so), and then deal with it from that vantage point. This leads to all sorts of distortions IMO.

    eta: And now I'm thinking that there can be a sort of overarching feedback loop, something like: The distortions caused by applying Je narratives to Ni/Ni-Se perception appear to "prove" the default assumption that Ni/Ni-Se information should be suspect (crazy/wrong) unless proven otherwise, thus supporting the presumed need for more Je narratives, thus causing more distortions, and on and on.

  9. #19
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    In Gladwell’s book, he explains that when we question initial assessments- that’s where things can go wrong. We start confabulating reasons for why we think we know it, and that can lead us astray because we believe the confabulations. [I’ll try to come back with a better explanation later if/when I have time- but I second the point I think Werebudgie is trying to make. While I think being able to explain how we got from A to Q to other people is important, I also think there’s value in learning to trust something is *probably* true even when we can’t immediately explain it. It's a hard call- because I've dealt with batshit Ni in others (where they just *believe* their incredibly wrong insight) and I loathe the idea of being 'that person' myself.]
    This is interesting, to be sure, and I know there are times when I have not listened to my initial gut instinct, and have regretted it, only to learn later I should have paid attention to that, and made a mess of rationalizing it after the fact, denying myself/something.

    However. I can throw out an equal number of times where I've thought/felt something, and been wrong.

    So... I guess.... I'm not sure where that in the end leaves me, in terms of what I think of that books' suggestion.

    Suppose it's about learning yourself and really, really being aware of the nuances of when your personal emotions come into play? Knowing when you're tricking yourself, vs. not? Tricky business.

    But, then, I don't identify with Ni-dom-ness any longer. Perhaps Ni doms have a better track record at this? I wouldn't know. Though... it's tempting to look at all of the INxJ's in the world (well, all people...any type can do it), with their beliefs of what is true, and extrapolate from that that the act of believing one has the truth doesn't really mean much... not all of them are right, ha...
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  10. #20
    Junior Member Susurrus's Avatar
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    I don't think Ni can be understood intellectually since doing so requires some kind of reasoning.Ni are sort of like the Zen koans which required the subject to suspend all kind of reasoning and instead reconcile contradictions in order to reach an intuitive understanding of the nature of reality. Jung stated that introverted irrational functions(Si,Ni) were the hardest to explain to others since it stand in glaring contrast to our current mode of operation that values logical and rationalistic processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, such types are indeed the most fruitless of men.
    But, viewed from a higher standpoint, such men are living evidence of the fact that this rich and
    varied world with its overflowing and intoxicating life is not purely external, but also exists
    within. These types are admittedly one sided demonstrations of Nature, but they are an
    educational experience for the man who refuses to be blinded by the intellectual mode of the day.
    In their own way, men with such an attitude are educators and promoters of culture. Their life
    teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest
    fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our
    civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate
    overprizing of instruction by means of word and method.

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