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  1. #161
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I'm not sure if this pertains to INFJs, but as an Ni dominant, I routinely plan out conversations that might never happen or timelines that may never happen in my head just in case they do (part of the irrationale of Ni?). I often will find myself preparing myself mentally for debate by addressing probable questions from the party that I would be debating with in order to strike down their point and deliver my own well. I find myself planning for no reason, almost like entertainment sometimes, to see what would happen in a sequence of events and what would be the probable outcome of something.
    I think I have a tendency to do that too...I also keep rehashing\replaying how I should've acted in a given failed\unpleasant interaction in the past...I keep examining it thoroughly in my head in an obsessive manner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    It's the first one for me I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The description is too vague but I'd say it's the first one for me again...

  2. #162
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    ...FWIW or not, I strongly suspect that there's something going on with these kinds of unsolicited and seemingly persistent (multiple) other-typing moves from yeghor that - despite appearances -has very little to do with actual use of typology as a tool for understanding of self and others, and a lot more to do with non-MBTI-related psychological stuff (though I'm not sure the exact specifics).
    It's not like that...I am trying to make a correlation between MBTI and psychology concepts such as ego, id, superego etc...Both are important topics for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    @yeghor: From my perspective, you persistently display serious misunderstanding of Jungian cognitive functions at the most basic of levels, and your view on Ni is no exception. Overall, as I see it, it's not that your theories are 100% wrong - it's that in my view, your theories are basically made up of a semi-structured conceptual word-salad composed of little tiny bits of accurate information tossed up with a whole huge mess of distorted nonsense. I've held back from saying this largely because I'm not willing to expend the time and energy to pick apart all (or even a specific chunk) of this distorted nonsense to illustrate what I mean. At the same time, from my vantage point, this situation seems glaringly obvious in what you've written and linked to in our sub-discussion in this thread alone, and having it on display is enough for me. And to be clear, this comment is not an invitation for any further discussion.
    @the bolded part, held back for how long?

  3. #163
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think I have a tendency to do that too...I also keep rehashing\replaying how I should've acted in a given failed\unpleasant interaction in the past...I keep examining it thoroughly in my head in an obsessive manner...



    It's the first one for me I guess...



    The description is too vague but I'd say it's the first one for me again...
    Well for the first question you got dynamic, but for the second you got static. Static-Dynamic is a Reinen Dichotomy from Socionics that is indicative of Je in the Ego (Dynamic) or Ji in the Ego (Static). (By the way, I find the second question worldly more accurate than the first, there are many interpretations for the first question)

    Statics perceive the world as specific events that happen in one instant and lead to another. A static, when on a long drive, assuming he or she is not daydreaming the entire time, would remember specific points chronologically that lead to the destination. "I remember when we turned left at this one intersection with a barn, then we ended up at another where we turned right away from some fences..."

    Dynamics perceive the world as a continuous flow of events that is unbroken, where each piece transitions smoothly into the next. A dynamic, when on a long drive, assuming he or she is not daydreaming the entire time, would remember the general trip all the way from point A to point B, but without any specifics, such as the snap-shot focus of the above static's interpretation. They would remember the road primarily and exactly how it weaved rather than specific landmarks and snap-shots.

    Static types in Socionics include all of the introverted rational types (Ixxj) and the extroverted irrational types (Exxp), while Dynamic types comprise all of the extroverted rational types (Exxj) and the introverted irrational types (Ixxp). Which, in MBTI due to the J/P switch, means that all Perceiving types in MBTI are Statics and all Judging types in MBTI are Dynamics.

  4. #164
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Interesting. Yeghor first suggested I was an ISTP in a PM dialogue, and when I didn't get on board with him in private, ended up bringing it out into this public discussion.

    I, too, don't relate to how he describes Ni, and I also don't recognize Ni in his attempted descriptions of that cognitive function, self-descriptions of Ni, and how he describes it. And I've been hesitant to get into this next bit because MBTI is just a tool for me, not some sort of street cred thing. But seeing your comment, I'll go there. Thing is, my own MBTI typing comes from several different yet converging data sources - a structure that would be called "triangulation" in qualitative research terms and is more solid than only one source or only one type of source. The sources for my INFJ designation include: being professionally typed as INFJ some years ago; having the INFJ cognitive function stack map to documented written data from my life experiences in pretty persistent and rigorous ways; many self-tests of both type and cognitive function yielding INFJ; the day to day fact that understanding of the cognitive function stack of INFJ and INFP has served as a amazingly practical and effective tool in my relationship with my INFP partner; some additional obvious practical/relational usefulness from attending to INFJ/ENTP cognitive functions for understanding between me and an ENTP friend of mine; and various online discussions with other Ni-doms and INFJs that showed convergences (with variations due to human diversity and TJ /FJ for Ni doms) between our experiences of Ni and/or Ni-Fe-Ti-Se (some of which actually appear in this thread and others of which appear elsewhere on this site).

    eta: However, I do use ellipses sometimes, for real. So ... you know, do with that what you may ...

    FWIW or not, I strongly suspect that there's something going on with these kinds of unsolicited and seemingly persistent (multiple) other-typing moves from yeghor that - despite appearances -has very little to do with actual use of typology as a tool for understanding of self and others, and a lot more to do with non-MBTI-related psychological stuff (though I'm not sure the exact specifics).

    and @yeghor: From my perspective, you persistently display serious misunderstanding of Jungian cognitive functions at the most basic of levels, and your view on Ni is no exception. Overall, as I see it, it's not that your theories are 100% wrong - it's that in my view, your theories are basically made up of a semi-structured conceptual word-salad composed of little tiny bits of accurate information tossed up with a whole huge mess of distorted nonsense. I've held back from saying this largely because I'm not willing to expend the time and energy to pick apart all (or even a specific chunk) of this distorted nonsense to illustrate what I mean. At the same time, from my vantage point, this situation seems glaringly obvious in what you've written and linked to in our sub-discussion in this thread alone, and having it on display is enough for me. And to be clear, this comment is not an invitation for any further discussion.
    to me it's not a big deal. we're all in a tricky matrix of understanding ourselves in relationship to others. i'd rather try to be helpful than harmful, altho i know that i get caught up in my own expectations and identifications quite easily too. i'm not trying to out anybody--i've know i've sent people, over time, messages aimed at retyping them, sometimes probably helpful, and sometimes probably to maintain the integrity of my own mental system. sometimes probably just because of my own lack of boundaries at recognizing how to let things go, so i don't feel like their presence is inherently exhausting me if it is not what i want it to be.

    typology is crazy complicated, and when we really throw our awareness into the complexity of our minds and the divergent paths we take that specialize us, sometimes in ways that aren't even really available as a conscious choice but are part of some innate responsiveness that somehow unfolds in the way that it does, it's difficult to feel really grounded in that, especially if you bring a mental openness, sensitivity, and raw anxious mental speed kind of energy to the table (like head types, in my estimation, are wont to do). and when you realize that these working in combination have an inherently political, evaluative, biasing effect, there's something unsettling to work through with that.

    i mean, i remember streams of posts where i realized i was Fe and not Fi, and that i didn't know how to have integrity or authenticity, and that i couldn't be a creative person, and so on and so forth. as silly as that is to me now, it took a long path to get there. and there are still insecurities that typology helps me at times recognize. sometimes, this is great. sometimes, this is overwhelming.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I'm not sure if this pertains to INFJs, but as an Ni dominant, I routinely plan out conversations that might never happen or timelines that may never happen in my head just in case they do (part of the irrationale of Ni?). I often will find myself preparing myself mentally for debate by addressing probable questions from the party that I would be debating with in order to strike down their point and deliver my own well. I find myself planning for no reason, almost like entertainment sometimes, to see what would happen in a sequence of events and what would be the probable outcome of something.
    I do a version of this a lot - mostly inside myself, but sometimes out loud if I'm alone. (so far no one has walked in on me doing this, thankfully).

    But unlike you, it's not about debate for me, there's usually some possible reason even if remote, and my focus is not about making points but about imagined dialogue where there will be possible stress and/or differences. For me it doesn't feel like entertainment at all. To give a sort of archtypical example for me, I do this a lot when I'm job-searching in relation to specific questions I think I might face in actual or possible interviews, even before I know if I'll even have an interview. I don't know if this has anything to do with Ni or not.

    Speaking of Ni, I've been meaning to tell you that your description of Ni in another comment as the most irrational irrational function (in contrast to Te as the most rational rational function) struck me as really useful somehow. I don't know why/what, exactly, but that really resonated for me as something to keep in the back of my mind. And a a less intense layer, it did get me curious about how the INTJs navigate that NiTe dom-aux combo from that angle of irrational/rational. (and please know that I'm in pre-analytical mode on this right now, meaning I feel this as interesting but don't really have a conscious or analytical grasp on why or what at this point).

    I have a question to you, (since this is probably going to be @Werebudgie or @yeghor reading this)

    In terms of your own perspective, would you say that:

    The world around you is constantly changing, while you, as a person, remain constant or unwavering?
    or
    The world around you is constant and unwavering, but you, as a person, are constantly changing?
    Neither of these options make sense to me as a reflection of my own perspective.

    As a "self", I don't feel like I remain constant or unwavering. Part of this may be a contrast: I see what having an unwavering self looks like in my INFP and compared to her, I'm constantly adapting and shifting at depths that she finds unthinkable.

    And also I don't feel the world around me as constant and unwavering either - in very practical terms, things keep changing and changing and CHANGING in my/our external life and this has been really seriously intense in the last several years. We're constantly in transition in where we live, what we're each doing for work, how we relate to each other at the most basic of levels. I find this quite stressful. I don't want life to be at a standstill (I always like to be actively learning and if I'm not I get frustrated), but I would really like it if at the level of the external world basics, I could take a breath already and relax at some basic level and not have to be vigilant to the external world changes and what's going to happen next. My partner is much more able to go with the flow of these changes and handle a constantly changing situation at the most basic levels of our lives - she seems to almost expect or invite them, in fact (at least from my perspective). I'm much more prone to get stressed out by them.

    But. I'm not really sure how much of this is cognitive functions and how much our respective enneagrams - I'm a 6 and she's a 9. The INFJ/6 vs. INFP/9 differences can be quite ... intense. I need structure in my external world in that Pi/Je dynamic you and I discussed earlier. And when I don't get that external-world structure, the 6 in me can, under some circumstances, meld that situation with a need for/lack of security. And the security thing has come up a fair amount in the last however many years in very real ways related to our basic material survival and the existence and structure of our relationship.

    I have no idea if I'm answering your question here though. Am I? If not, is there another way you could ask this to get at whatever you're trying to get at?

    and Secondly,

    Do you perceive reality as a:

    Series of snap-shots, photographs that contain specific events that are arranged in chronological order. (Ex. Do you remember certain paths because of specific points on the route, such as a gas station or something, and if those specific points disappeared, you'd be lost?)
    or
    A single, continuous, flow of events, as an unbroken chain where the general occurrence is preserved. (Ex. Do you remember certain paths as one, undivided route, not by landmarks but because of the general pattern?)
    Again, neither of these options makes sense to me as a reflection of how I perceive reality. Again, I'll try to respond, but don't know if I'm actually answering your question:

    I don't perceive reality as snap-shots/stills because I do perceive reality as in motion.

    I also don't perceive reality as an unbroken chain with no landmarks.

    How I perceive reality in relation to my human/visible life: I've used the metaphor of dreams to try to describe it. Like: dreams - their internal logics and the specific dream-world's needs - feel very very real and important when I'm in them and I respond in action to that stuff when in the dream. But when I wake up, those same logics and dreamworld needs aren't pressing anymore. From this perspective, I feel my human life as a non-linear series of dreams from which I wake up into the next one (the non-linear is important in that it doesn't feel like a linear path, but more like layered realities outside of linear time). Anyway, I have the memories and lived experience of having been intensely engaged in the specifics of past contexts, but it has a quality to it that resonates like how I feel my dreams.

    And as for Ni specifically: I perceive what I call my Ni landscape at several different layers. In one of them, landmarks might be relevant in the present as I look around and move in the landscape. Not as still snapshots at all - instead, very vivid and multi-dimensional and in-motion and real to me (though clearly not the same layer of reality as conveyed by my five senses). It's like standing in a forest (for example) and looking around and seeing intersecting rivers and trees and ground and dimensions of up and down and over etc that orients me to where I am and what's around me. I don't actually know if this is what you mean by "landmarks," though. I will say, in case it has any relevance, that time isn't linear in this space, but is instead just another coordinate that designates place.

    Again, I don't know if this answers your question, and if not, could you re-phrase?

  6. #166
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I do a version of this a lot - mostly inside myself, but sometimes out loud if I'm alone. (so far no one has walked in on me doing this, thankfully).

    But unlike you, it's not about debate for me, there's usually some possible reason even if remote, and my focus is not about making points but about imagined dialogue where there will be possible stress and/or differences. For me it doesn't feel like entertainment at all. To give a sort of archtypical example for me, I do this a lot when I'm job-searching in relation to specific questions I think I might face in actual or possible interviews, even before I know if I'll even have an interview. I don't know if this has anything to do with Ni or not.

    Speaking of Ni, I've been meaning to tell you that your description of Ni in another comment as the most irrational irrational function (in contrast to Te as the most rational rational function) struck me as really useful somehow. I don't know why/what, exactly, but that really resonated for me as something to keep in the back of my mind. And a a less intense layer, it did get me curious about how the INTJs navigate that NiTe dom-aux combo from that angle of irrational/rational. (and please know that I'm in pre-analytical mode on this right now, meaning I feel this as interesting but don't really have a conscious or analytical grasp on why or what at this point).



    Neither of these options make sense to me as a reflection of my own perspective.

    As a "self", I don't feel like I remain constant or unwavering. Part of this may be a contrast: I see what having an unwavering self looks like in my INFP and compared to her, I'm constantly adapting and shifting at depths that she finds unthinkable.

    And also I don't feel the world around me as constant and unwavering either - in very practical terms, things keep changing and changing and CHANGING in my/our external life and this has been really seriously intense in the last several years. We're constantly in transition in where we live, what we're each doing for work, how we relate to each other at the most basic of levels. I find this quite stressful. I don't want life to be at a standstill (I always like to be actively learning and if I'm not I get frustrated), but I would really like it if at the level of the external world basics, I could take a breath already and relax at some basic level and not have to be vigilant to the external world changes and what's going to happen next. My partner is much more able to go with the flow of these changes and handle a constantly changing situation at the most basic levels of our lives - she seems to almost expect or invite them, in fact (at least from my perspective). I'm much more prone to get stressed out by them.

    But. I'm not really sure how much of this is cognitive functions and how much our respective enneagrams - I'm a 6 and she's a 9. The INFJ/6 vs. INFP/9 differences can be quite ... intense. I need structure in my external world in that Pi/Je dynamic you and I discussed earlier. And when I don't get that external-world structure, the 6 in me can, under some circumstances, meld that situation with a need for/lack of security. And the security thing has come up a fair amount in the last however many years in very real ways related to our basic material survival and the existence and structure of our relationship.

    I have no idea if I'm answering your question here though. Am I? If not, is there another way you could ask this to get at whatever you're trying to get at?



    Again, neither of these options makes sense to me as a reflection of how I perceive reality. Again, I'll try to respond, but don't know if I'm actually answering your question:

    I don't perceive reality as snap-shots/stills because I do perceive reality as in motion.

    I also don't perceive reality as an unbroken chain with no landmarks.

    How I perceive reality in relation to my human/visible life: I've used the metaphor of dreams to try to describe it. Like: dreams - their internal logics and the specific dream-world's needs - feel very very real and important when I'm in them and I respond in action to that stuff when in the dream. But when I wake up, those same logics and dreamworld needs aren't pressing anymore. From this perspective, I feel my human life as a non-linear series of dreams from which I wake up into the next one (the non-linear is important in that it doesn't feel like a linear path, but more like layered realities outside of linear time). Anyway, I have the memories and lived experience of having been intensely engaged in the specifics of past contexts, but it has a quality to it that resonates like how I feel my dreams.

    And as for Ni specifically: I perceive what I call my Ni landscape at several different layers. In one of them, landmarks might be relevant in the present as I look around and move in the landscape. Not as still snapshots at all - instead, very vivid and multi-dimensional and in-motion and real to me (though clearly not the same layer of reality as conveyed by my five senses). It's like standing in a forest (for example) and looking around and seeing intersecting rivers and trees and ground and dimensions of up and down and over etc that orients me to where I am and what's around me. I don't actually know if this is what you mean by "landmarks," though. I will say, in case it has any relevance, that time isn't linear in this space, but is instead just another coordinate that designates place.

    Again, I don't know if this answers your question, and if not, could you re-phrase?
    Perhaps try looking at my driving example I mentioned 2 posts up.

    Your first answer indicates a dynamic type (though it is less accurate than the second question). This means that you think that you don't really change much as a person, yet at the same time you think the world around you is changing constantly. Dynamics see the world as something that is never constant and something that is always trying to leave them, perceived to be constants, behind.

    Dynamic Types relevant to this discussion include: INFJ, ENFJ
    Static Types relevant to this discussion include: INFP, ENFP

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Your first answer indicates a dynamic type (though it is less accurate than the second question). This means that you think that you don't really change much as a person, yet at the same time you think the world around you is changing constantly. Dynamics see the world as something that is never constant and something that is always trying to leave them, perceived to be constants, behind.
    If this is about the external and visible world, there's something resonating for me in the bolded part, but it's really not ever how I would put it directly (I don't think the world is trying to do anything to me, for example, I'm not that important in the bigger picture of things). But anyway, there's some resonance. *sigh* I guess I really don't like it being that way and keep hoping I can find a way for it to stop being like that and thinking I just need to find the right combination of circumstances and it won't feel that way. I do feel a persistent discomfort of trying to "keep up" with the external/vvisible world around me and feeling like organically I have a slower pace of moving through that external world (especially obvious when compared with than my much quicker-moving INFP).

    Perhaps try looking at my driving example I mentioned 2 posts up.
    Okay ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Statics perceive the world as specific events that happen in one instant and lead to another. A static, when on a long drive, assuming he or she is not daydreaming the entire time, would remember specific points chronologically that lead to the destination. "I remember when we turned left at this one intersection with a barn, then we ended up at another where we turned right away from some fences..."
    If I take this as a literal example of actually being on a drive: I am terrible at remembering these kinds of details. It's why I can easily get lost and why I print out step by step directions for things and take them with me in the car until I've driven somewhere enough times that I can do it on autopilot. I also persistently have the experience of going somewhere many times with my partner when she's driving and I have no idea how to get there if I were driving or trying to tell someone else how to get there.

    But I don't know if what you're saying is supposed to map to literal experience with driving or if it's more of a metaphor.

    Dynamics perceive the world as a continuous flow of events that is unbroken, where each piece transitions smoothly into the next. A dynamic, when on a long drive, assuming he or she is not daydreaming the entire time, would remember the general trip all the way from point A to point B, but without any specifics, such as the snap-shot focus of the above static's interpretation. They would remember the road primarily and exactly how it weaved rather than specific landmarks and snap-shots.
    I tend to daydream or focus on something other than how to get there unless I force myself, so I don't know about this. I can sometimes have vivid almost symbolic (or associational) flashes of certain moments and places on a drive but it's not linear/chronological at all - so for example, I might remember seeing the river associated with the feel of part of the discussion we were having. But it's also unlikely that I would remember "primarily and exactly how [a road] weaved." At best, I would remember vague impressions of how it weaved, nothing exact.

    Again, not sure if the example is literal or metaphorical. Have I answer that question yet?

    Static types in Socionics include all of the introverted rational types (Ixxj) and the extroverted irrational types (Exxp), while Dynamic types comprise all of the extroverted rational types (Exxj) and the introverted irrational types (Ixxp). Which, in MBTI due to the J/P switch, means that all Perceiving types in MBTI are Statics and all Judging types in MBTI are Dynamics.
    I must admit, I'm not a fan of socionics. While it may be useful for others, so far, it hasn't been hugely useful to me for my own understanding. (Though it does have an interesting take on Fe that might be useful to me somehow).

    Dynamic Types relevant to this discussion include: INFJ, ENFJ
    Static Types relevant to this discussion include: INFP, ENFP
    Are the J/P letters here ^ ^ from MBTI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Are the J/P letters here ^ ^ from MBTI?
    Yes. If I ever write all four letters as capitals, it is MBTI JCF. If I ever write 3 letters as capitals and the j or p as lowercase, then it is Socionics.

    ENTP - MBTI
    ENTp - Socionics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Your first answer indicates a dynamic type (though it is less accurate than the second question). This means that you think that you don't really change much as a person, yet at the same time you think the world around you is changing constantly. Dynamics see the world as something that is never constant and something that is always trying to leave them, perceived to be constants, behind.
    Also - could you provide the same kind of description for the static type that you did here ^ ^ for the dynamic type? I want to see which of the two resonates for my partner. Your approach to the dynamic one here is far clearer to me than the previous question was and if I could get the same kind of description for static, I'd be able to get her take on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Also - could you provide the same kind of description for the static type that you did here ^ ^ for the dynamic type? I want to see which of the two resonates for my partner. Your approach to the dynamic one here is far clearer to me than the previous question was and if I could get the same kind of description for static, I'd be able to get her take on it.
    Static types perceive reality as a bit of a slideshow (metaphorically, its how they first perceive things). Whereas the Dynamic type (such as myself) would recognize the pattern of the road and recall the drive through its winding as a pure generalization, the Static type's memory of the drive would be jagged, with specific instances.

    (Stolen this metaphor from a Socionics site)
    Take for example, a camera. A camera has two options to record data, by recording it with video or by photographing it. If you take twenty or so photographs during a car ride, you can line them up in a row and chronologically organize them (We were here first, then we were here next, then we were here after that...) and each photograph will be highly detailed and defined with specific information. If you were to record the trip with video, however, you would have the entire trip in one sitting, but lose the detailed, defined, and specific information for a general experience of the whole trip rather than certain parts of it. This is Static vs Dynamic.

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