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  1. #151
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    On a skim, I see a lot of abstract theorizing about what you think Ni is as a concept, and not a whole lot of speaking from what the actual experience of being a Ni-dom is for you in particular. So it makes sense that you'd respond to my comment about intellectual/values masturbation as if I'm dismissing some core attribute of Ni.

    eta: it looks to me like when it comes to discussing Ni, you're more interested in abstractly defining a concept of Ni, I'm more interested in describing my perceptual experiences and reading/interacting with descriptions of perceptual experiences from others - specifically Ni-doms for the purpose of this thread - to see if there's any convergence of various actual experiences of Ni (rather than what you seem interested in, which as far as I can tell right now, is more about theoretical consistency of the concept of Ni as related to a thinking system that includes or focuses on cognitive processes).
    I am trying to get to what Ni is in essence...If we have a simple model/key to define what Ni is and how it works, then we can superpose it over our actual experiences and see whether those experiences are really products of Ni in progress...

    Ni sees any internally accumulated data from a far enough distance so that the details of the data gets blurred...hence, Ni sees the essential outline (pattern) of that data set...which is then stored inside the Ni reservoir...and is used later on the detect matching patterns in the immediate environment...

    It may also be able to see (from a far enough distance) whether there are inconsistent parts in the data set (i.e. whether individual layers overlap or not)...

    So when Ni hunches tell you that something is off, it has either detected a pattern stored in the Ni-reservoir thru an earlier experience...or the data layers (such as Fe and Se for instance) seen from afar do not match\overlap with each other...

    So thru constantly comparing the outline of Fe and Se information incoming from the same source, Ni may detect whether what the Fe layer and Se layer tells match...and that raises a hunch/gut feeling (alarm) in Ni-dom...

    Making sense of the hunch requires Ti function i.e. moving closer towards the data set for closer inspection...

    So Ni-dom = far perceiving (unconscious, instantaneous) and Ti-auxtert = closer inspection (conscious, time-consuming)

    External functions = Data layers perceived by Ni and analyzed by Ti... That's the basic key IMO to compare your real life experiences with...

    IRL, this for me manifests mostly as noticing that the declared intent and the real intent of a person do not match/overlap...My reaction to it varies in severity depending on my perceived potential of that specific instance escalating into a conflict...

    Edit: A Ti-dom based on this model would first quickly and consciously notice the details\specifics of the data set, and then move away from the data set to a certain distance where the outlines (i.e. the pattern) can be perceived slowly thru Ni-tert...But the moving away thing would take more time wrt a Ni-dom (who would already start the process at a distance from the data set to begin with)...

    This may be related to what if I am not mistaken @uumlau have mentioned somewhere about the disconnect between INTJs and INTPs, where INTPs (according to Uumlau) keep focusing moreon the specifics of the discussion such as the use of correct wording etc. rather than the global/essential aspects of it...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-11-2014 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Edit Blue

  2. #152
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Closer look at Introvert Intuition

    (File Last Modified Tues, Oct 29, 2002.)

    Four ways of perception
    How does introvert intuition work
    Introvert Intuition in practice
    Introverted Intuition in a Sensate Culture
    Traits for INFJs
    Four ways of perception

    Whatever types we happen to be, we use all four means of perception in one way or another. For example, if we were spending a day at the beach:

    Extraverted Sensation would prompt us to go with our sense impressions as they occurred: to lie in the sun, play in the surf, listen to the gulls piping overhead.

    Introverted Sensation would move us to stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with facts we knew to be consistent. We might bring our favorite book, snorkel and flippers, a bag of snacks, extra towels because someone will probably forget one, and a watch to make sure we beat the traffic home.

    Extraverted Intuition would move us to unify our sense impressions with their larger context, thereby creating new options for meaning and response. For example, ad we lie on our blanket in the sun, perhaps we hear music in the distance. Someone passing by mentions a great restaurant in town. Suddenly we're thinking: Hey, there must be an amusement park nearby. If it's on our way to town, we can check out the rides before we look for the restaurant that passerby was talking about. In fact, maybe the guy knows about other places we should consider, where did he go?

    Introverted Intuition would prompt us to liberate our sense impressions from their larger context, thereby creating new options for perception itself. For example, we might find ourselves wondering why people feel so strongly about getting a good tan. We remember reading somewhere that before Industrial Revolution, being tan marked one as a manual laborer, because it suggested work out of doors. After the Industrial Revolution, it was pale skin that suggested manual labor, because it indicated work in a poorly lit factory. Such correlations aren't relevant today, but a good tan is still considered attractive. Why is that? We consider raising the question as a topic of conversation, but we're pretty sure our friends will think we're observing a situation instead of enjoying it.
    I like this one. http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~yingh/type/infjmore.html

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I am trying to get to what Ni is in essence...If we have a simple model/key to define what Ni is and how it works, then we can superpose it over our actual experiences and see whether those experiences are really products of Ni in progress...
    Having the categories defined "correct" to the point of superposing a relatively rigid conceptual model over lived experience when faced with any complexity ... meaning, getting a singular category definition set up and "correct" and then holding that conceptual definition, as a definition, rigid in relation to any information that is outside the carefully pre-defined category ... is, from what I can tell, of tremendous importance to you, over and over in these comments. I'm really not sure what (if any) specific Jungian cognitive process such an approach maps to, but it really seems like a big huge deal to you in all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The part you quoted about the tans:

    plus (at least) this from the same page:

    Introverted intuition is used by most types to contend with ambiguities of meaning and perception--that is, to see that a situation can be interpreted in more than one way. Where Extraverted Intuitives see many behavioral options, Introverted Intuitives acknowledge many conceptual standpoints.

    These types have the disconcerting habit of solving a problem by shifting their perspective and defining the situation some other way. For example, a recent article advises the parents of a fussy or demanding baby not to describe the infants as difficult but to recognize that such children have vivid, strong, and rich personalities. This is how Introverted Intuition works. The material facts remain the same, but we organize them in a new conceptual pattern that changes their meaning and give us new options for behavior.
    Reminds me somewhat of discussion of the Ni perspective shifts that came up in this comment here
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 03-09-2014 at 12:02 AM. Reason: for clarity in a couple of different ways

  4. #154
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Having the categories defined "correct" to the point of superposing a relatively rigid conceptual model over lived experience when faced with any complexity ... meaning, getting a singular category definition set up and "correct" and then holding that conceptual definition, as a definition, rigid in relation to any information that is outside the carefully pre-defined category ... is, from what I can tell, of tremendous importance to you, over and over in these comments. I'm really not sure what (if any) specific Jungian cognitive process such an approach maps to, but it really seems like a big huge deal to you in all of this.
    It's my pet peeve I guess...I am trying to craft a skeleton key that can open most if not all doors...

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    It's my pet peeve I guess...I am trying to craft a skeleton key that can open most if not all doors...
    1. Am I accurate in understanding that this skeleton key you seek is some sort of rigidly defined conceptual system/model that can be used to assess data?

    If not, what is it in your own words, and why/how is it related to what I described that you quoted?

    2. Why do you want such a key/what will it do for you?

    3. Doors into what?

  6. #156
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    1. Am I accurate in understanding that this skeleton key you seek is some sort of rigidly defined conceptual system/model that can be used to assess data?

    If not, what is it in your own words, and why/how is it related to what I described that you quoted?
    I feel like I am taking a leap of faith here...

    It's the Ni landscape itself...not rigidly defined but rather (perhaps rigidly, rigorously) refined/reduced to a simpler\basic form...for ease of use and swift application...

    It's how I make sense of the external (and perhaps internal) world...In fact I guess it is the same for all of us...Our dom function is how we basically make sense of the world...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    2. Why do you want such a key/what will it do for you?
    To make better sense of the world and the people in it (including myself perhaps)...thereby, feeling (more) safe/secure (or in control) as a result...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    3. Doors into what?
    To underlying/core essence/meaning of all objects in the external and internal world including people as well as any kind of information/data...

    It feels like I am trying to gain increased aptitude at making sense of and responding to the world or life itself...thereby honing my dominant function...

    I am using, I guess, Ti-tert to flesh these out...They feel more like assumptions/theories than rigid conclusions to me...the process doesn't feel very fluid but rather more viscous, as if there's some tiring\exhausting mental resistance to its flow...

    I am trying to be as accurate as possible though...

  7. #157
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    yeghor, i know you pm'ed me about you thinking i was an infp, so i think it's cool if i send this back. in terms of my viewpoint, i don't relate to your descriptions of Ni, and I can't really fathom choosing that model, Ni, as best fit for what you describe and how you do so.

    my question to you would be whether you think a j type is generally more or less likely to use so many ellipses in each non-paragraph that you write ("non-paragraph," read: not a judgment, but simply an observation of form)? i went through a little elipsis phase, probably a subconscious Fe move because of a crush on a much more spontaneous than me fp girl , but i know i could never, ever write like you. even aphoristically or enumeratively, i would need some kind of closure (<--ie elaborations such as this preceding one and this current one that allow me to feel like the thought is suitably layered). i do not at all mean my observation in a bad way. i actually enjoy the kind of diffuse, rapid fire rush. from what i have seen, generally j types rely on a kind of sometimes overdone architectonics, whereas p types tend to embody more of a sense of motion (especially the open-ended, e7, ep ones). it's kind of like the difference between emily dickinson vs walt whitman. one is a verbal sudoku, and the other is the cinematography for breaking bad or a slithery animal collective song.

    anyway, if you want to play the type guessing game, i'd be happy to continue to contribute. my imaginary type actuarial tables also indicate that a picture of a cat -- the ultimate p -- as your avatar, puts you at about 80% likelihood of nfp. my crazy cat lady male infp roommate (who would appreciate this characterization), or our crazy cat lady infp friend (who would also appreciate this and, even more so, the former characterization), i think, would concur. their cats are not de-clawed (altho once or twice breaded).

    as for feeling safe, which you mention as a significant motive for typology in general, abstract self-knowledge is less important than self-observation, because it's less under your control. the former is a kind of starting point for the latter. either way, with enough commitment, they are destined to intersect.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    yeghor, i know you pm'ed me about you thinking i was an infp, so i think it's cool if i send this back. in terms of my viewpoint, i don't relate to your descriptions of Ni, and I can't really fathom choosing that model, Ni, as best fit for what you describe and how you do so.
    Interesting. Yeghor first suggested I was an ISTP in a PM dialogue, and when I didn't get on board with him in private, ended up bringing it out into this public discussion.

    I, too, don't relate to how he describes Ni, and I also don't recognize Ni in his attempted descriptions of that cognitive function, self-descriptions of Ni, and how he describes it. And I've been hesitant to get into this next bit because MBTI is just a tool for me, not some sort of street cred thing. But seeing your comment, I'll go there. Thing is, my own MBTI typing comes from several different yet converging data sources - a structure that would be called "triangulation" in qualitative research terms and is more solid than only one source or only one type of source. The sources for my INFJ designation include: being professionally typed as INFJ some years ago; having the INFJ cognitive function stack map to documented written data from my life experiences in pretty persistent and rigorous ways; many self-tests of both type and cognitive function yielding INFJ; the day to day fact that understanding of the cognitive function stack of INFJ and INFP has served as a amazingly practical and effective tool in my relationship with my INFP partner; some additional obvious practical/relational usefulness from attending to INFJ/ENTP cognitive functions for understanding between me and an ENTP friend of mine; and various online discussions with other Ni-doms and INFJs that showed convergences (with variations due to human diversity and TJ /FJ for Ni doms) between our experiences of Ni and/or Ni-Fe-Ti-Se (some of which actually appear in this thread and others of which appear elsewhere on this site).

    eta: However, I do use ellipses sometimes, for real. So ... you know, do with that what you may ...

    FWIW or not, I strongly suspect that there's something going on with these kinds of unsolicited and seemingly persistent (multiple) other-typing moves from yeghor that - despite appearances -has very little to do with actual use of typology as a tool for understanding of self and others, and a lot more to do with non-MBTI-related psychological stuff (though I'm not sure the exact specifics).

    and @yeghor: From my perspective, you persistently display serious misunderstanding of Jungian cognitive functions at the most basic of levels, and your view on Ni is no exception. Overall, as I see it, it's not that your theories are 100% wrong - it's that in my view, your theories are basically made up of a semi-structured conceptual word-salad composed of little tiny bits of accurate information tossed up with a whole huge mess of distorted nonsense. I've held back from saying this largely because I'm not willing to expend the time and energy to pick apart all (or even a specific chunk) of this distorted nonsense to illustrate what I mean. At the same time, from my vantage point, this situation seems glaringly obvious in what you've written and linked to in our sub-discussion in this thread alone, and having it on display is enough for me. And to be clear, this comment is not an invitation for any further discussion.

  9. #159
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if this pertains to INFJs, but as an Ni dominant, I routinely plan out conversations that might never happen or timelines that may never happen in my head just in case they do (part of the irrationale of Ni?). I often will find myself preparing myself mentally for debate by addressing probable questions from the party that I would be debating with in order to strike down their point and deliver my own well. I find myself planning for no reason, almost like entertainment sometimes, to see what would happen in a sequence of events and what would be the probable outcome of something.

    I have a question to you, (since this is probably going to be @Werebudgie or @yeghor reading this)

    In terms of your own perspective, would you say that:

    The world around you is constantly changing, while you, as a person, remain constant or unwavering?
    or
    The world around you is constant and unwavering, but you, as a person, are constantly changing?

    and Secondly,

    Do you perceive reality as a:

    Series of snap-shots, photographs that contain specific events that are arranged in chronological order. (Ex. Do you remember certain paths because of specific points on the route, such as a gas station or something, and if those specific points disappeared, you'd be lost?)
    or
    A single, continuous, flow of events, as an unbroken chain where the general occurrence is preserved. (Ex. Do you remember certain paths as one, undivided route, not by landmarks but because of the general pattern?)

  10. #160
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    yeghor, i know you pm'ed me about you thinking i was an infp, so i think it's cool if i send this back.
    It was a reputation comment if I am not mistaken...if that makes any difference...

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    I am formatting my text for better comprehension (both by myself and others)...The ellipses (3-dots thing) signify pauses in my internal voice (Ti I guess)...Without them, the text seems like a wall of text to me and starts suffocating me...(Ti getting tired and taking a breather during the ellipses?)

    The things in parantheses are clarifiers that I add while transcribing my thought\internal voice down...sometimes my internal voice tell me that my wording may be misconstrued therefore I add clarifiers in parantheses as well as multiple options for certain words that I am not entirely sure about...so that the reader can get what I mean as accurately as possible...

    So I think this formatting thing is something about my Fe (hence the judging thing?)...there you go again...the thing in that parantheses was my internal voice raising a question or a remark while I was writing this down...The internal voice keeps asking questions that lead me to explore alternative thought paths\branches...

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    You are using too much technical jargon (for me) and I cannot follow it clearly as I am not a native English speaker...That IMO also hinders the communicability of your comments...Ni is about reducing things down to simpler\essential concepts...barebones...I am not trying to offend you here but just making a point...

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    anyway, if you want to play the type guessing game, i'd be happy to continue to contribute. my imaginary type actuarial tables also indicate that a picture of a cat -- the ultimate p -- as your avatar, puts you at about 80% likelihood of nfp. my crazy cat lady male infp roommate (who would appreciate this characterization), or our crazy cat lady infp friend (who would also appreciate this and, even more so, the former characterization), i think, would concur. their cats are not de-clawed (altho once or twice breaded).
    I have a crazy cat lady acquaintance too...She and I are not that similar...What's the thing with cats not being de-clawed? And why are you not using capital "I" when referring to yourself? Is that some kind of signature style...?

    And please do contribute in the type guessing game...

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    as for feeling safe, which you mention as a significant motive for typology in general, abstract self-knowledge is less important than self-observation, because it's less under your control. the former is a kind of starting point for the latter. either way, with enough commitment, they are destined to intersect.
    I am trying to make connections between the two...

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