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  1. #131
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I really don't like rhetorical questions. Anyway, even though it seems verty much like a rhetorical question, my answer is - no, not from my perspective. If you don't have a lived reference point for what direct perception is like (apart from judging narratives), I can't help with words or dialogue.
    It's not a rhetorical question...It conveys my thought, expecting a response back...It was raised with a chuckle but with no ill feelings like sarcasm or condescension...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    You may be trying to get at whether there could be a human cultural system that doesn't devalue Ni-Se perception. If so, I myself don't know. But from my perspective, it's important to separate the perception itself from if and how any given cultural group values the perception. These are two different things in my view, and it's relatively obvious to me that they are.
    I am trying to understand how that perception may look like in in practice...It feels to me like going back to basics somehow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    As a note: I have been trying and trying to be patient with, correct for where it's most intense, and kind of "go around" an ongoing pull I feel from you in the dialogue starting when you posted the blank canvas data ... I don't know how to describe it, something about theoretical debate, proving points, trying to take my lived experience and use it to support your points or something like that. I can feel the shape of it but probably am not describing it accurately. In any case, I don't like it, and my patience and energy is wearing thin. (And to be clear, the fact that I personally don't like it doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with you or how you're approaching the discussion. It just means it's not where I'm at).
    You are right about the pull you've noticed...There are things about your experience of Ni, and particularly your focus on Se and dislike of human judging narratives (Fe and Te) that I stand apart from you, and I am trying to put them forward without allowing my Fe to hold me back...

    Holding my mouth about them offends me...and I can see that the other extreme may irritate you or cause you to disengage...I am trying to find that "sweet spot" that I mentioned...And, I don't want to go along with "your pull" either...

    And I can see that the overlap is wearing thinner and thinner...and you are shutting down...

    It feels like trying to decide whether to win an argument but lose a friend in the process or not open my mouth at all...

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    yeghor, I really appreciate your response here, acknowledging the previously unspoken dynamics. So you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You are right about the pull you've noticed...There are things about your experience of Ni, and particularly your focus on Se and dislike of human judging narratives (Fe and Te) that I stand apart from you, and I am trying to put them forward without allowing my Fe to hold me back...

    Holding my mouth about them offends me...and I can see that the other extreme may irritate you or cause you to disengage...I am trying to find that "sweet spot" that I mentioned...And, I don't want to go along with "your pull" either...
    Why can't it be simply that my experiences are mine, yours are yours, and we don't have to have overlap in order for both to be valid? That's a real question.

    And I can see that the overlap is wearing thinner and thinner...and you are shutting down...

    It feels like trying to decide whether to win an argument but lose a friend in the process or not open my mouth at all...
    Maybe the same question as above but from a different angle, but IMO worth asking anyway: Why do our differences of experience and focus feel to you like an argument that must be won or lost?

    (note: just FYI, in the background for me here is a conversation I had with my INFP partner last night, about shifts she has seen in me in the last year or so, that I'm mulling over. I suspect that something in this exchange might link into that, but am not sure. Will post anything relevant if it does connect)

  3. #133
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    I am comparing it to my own experiences, are you trying to say that's a wrong thing to do?

    It doesn't mean I can't focus on your point at the same time and/or not be receptive to further explanation on what your point is like. That is, yes, I'm glad to focus on whatever you say, process it in my own way and be receptive for more information from you. It would be unreasonable to expect I will understand everything perfectly right away and I certainly don't expect others to understand everything right away of whatever I said. I'm not a patient person by default but when it comes to discussing stuff, I am very patient in this sense.

    Also, would it be less "wrong" if I came to this forum claiming I am Ni-dom? Do not assume that my experiences are all invalid just because I don't have "Ni-dom" in my profile. Sorry though if you weren't doing that; Werebudgie did that before.
    It’s not that I think it’s ‘wrong’. It’s a relatively common occurrence in this forum for people to say, “That’s not a <whatever function> thing, I do it too.” Sometimes it gets frustrating because it interferes with being able to discuss commonalities.

    Or in other words, it’s one thing to say, “I relate to this too.” It’s another thing to say, “I don’t think this is related to being Ni dominant because I relate to it too.” The latter requires the commonalities conversation to stop long enough to explain a whole bunch of things that I don’t especially have the patience to stop and explain, because my focus is already on something else. I think that for Js, the way Ps want to pick apart the micro details that stand out to them- it’s like being expected to stop the car every 15 feet to check the air on the tires; after the first few ‘air checks’, it’s easy to forget what I got into the car for in the first place (which is why Js get angry with a lot of interruptions). So depending on how important the ‘destination’ of the original convo is- I’ll be proportionately agitated by distractions. [irl, I’m rarely as focused on conversation as I am here in the forum, I’m more focused on the people and I’m far more patient with side tangents. It’s much harder for me in written conversation though, to change gears.]

    So this “I relate to this too” business- it’s not that I think it’s wrong. I’ll just say that I too understand what it’s like to be in a GIT ER DONE (!) mode….but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a stronger characteristic of Te doms than it is of Ni doms. <-I hope that suffices as an explanation.

    [There are times in the forum when I think certain characteristics are wrongly attributed to a function- but people do tend to be a little too trigger happy with the whole “I do that too” argument around here.]

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    By quick I meant you see the "end" without thinking through an unconscious process and it's relatively fast because you don't have to take the time to flesh out steps to arrive there. Just as you said, there's an instant initial feeling. I also talked about "scrambling around" to find the steps to it and I think it pretty much implied that that is a slower process. I described the same urge Hard talked about too. And yep I also get the feeling at times that whatever others say is "off" and then I will have to figure out why which does take longer.

    Are we on the same page now, if not, let me know. I think we are talking about the same thing here.

    What may not be the same is that I thought this was part of Judging Ti (in my case at least). This instant feeling of the conclusion. So you don't categorize it as Judging then? I always had a bit of trouble clearly differentiating between the concepts perceiving and judging functions. The most sensible distinction I've ever heard came from Jung himself; perceiving = will see everything, all the world, while judging = will only see what can be "rational", that is, only part of the world. The above "conclusion thingie", it could be either honestly, if going by that distinction.
    I agree that "conclusion" can be either, and I think that's the crux of the misunderstanding here. I think- while the “scrambling around” description may resonate- Pe does the ‘scrambling around’ work aloud. [And before you argue this point- obviously it isn’t 100% every single fragment of every single thought must be spoken aloud. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying in comparison, Pe processes information by bouncing fragments off of others almost in real time as those fragments occur or relatively soon after they occur.]

    Someone around here once said that Pi does it’s “churning” of information internally (I think ‘churning’ and ‘scrambling around’ probably mean the same thing), and that seems true to me. I have to scramble internally, my own way- whereas PeJi/JiPe is inclined to want to bounce immediate fragments of the churning/scrambling process off of others. The process may not feel “immediate” to PeJi/JiPe- but it is from a Pi perspective. Think of it like a microwave- if all you ever use is a microwave, then it might sound ridiculous when someone claims food is “instantly” heated: sometimes it takes as long as 5 minutes to cook something. But in comparison to a conventional oven- it’s pretty instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No, here I didn't say the same thing. :/ I was talking about how Se doesn't get flooded with ideas. You said Pe types get flooded with ideas. Nope that's not me and I'm most likely Se > Ni but I no longer know even that honestly. So anyway, my point was maybe the flood of ideas is true for Ne types but not for Se types or at least not all Se types because it's not true for me.

    Where I do agree and do please note that I didn't even dispute it, because I was only disputing the "flooded with ideas" part, is that limbo thingie. I just don't focus on the limbo much so I don't feel it, only the "wall" that signals to me that right now it's pointless for me to attempt to go on with whatever I'm trying to "see" (when trying to "see" the "end" of whatever). Make sense?
    I do agree that "flooded" probably applies more to Ne.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Btw, it may matter where the Pe or Pi is, for example, a Te-dom is a Judging dominant and thus may just reject the whole thing if it doesn't sit right even though they do have Pi as aux. Of course if Te-doms experience it as putting the information away and only pulling it out if it does start to make sense, then okay, but that's just not how to seem to be.
    Yeah, it looks that way to me too. One of the problems with the internal ‘churning’ is that having someone bounce a bunch of fragments of thoughts off of us can sound like a bunch of gobbledy-gook if some strong bullet points are not presented as staples to frame that information. While Ti generally makes sense to me (in spite of the fact that it gets exhausting to get pummeled with Ti fragments, I can still usually follow), that’s not so much the case with Fi. I need a context in which to place the fragments or they will go in one ear and out the other.

    And so with Te doms- I’m starting to think a lot of times (when I thought they were dogmatically rejecting anything they didn’t already agree with) they reject Ti because there’s no staple or no framework ready to hold the fragments in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    May I ask what you meant by Ni-doms not listening? Not being receptive to other people's opinions? I thought of this interpretation because of the below text from you:
    I have been comparing Ni to a Rube Goldberg contraption for a while now (it probably applies somewhat to Si as well): if you put a marble in the top, it has to progress through a series of mechanisms before it hits ground zero. That’s what happens to information: it has to run the course through a series of diagnostics before I give it much weight. People tend to want to bypass this metaphorical Rube Goldberg contraption. It’s pretty common for people to feel like we’re “not listening” if they can’t say something and have it instantly bounced back at them in the way they bounce things back themselves. Pe dom/aux are much better at directly interacting with the information being presented in the moment (whether or not they’re actually giving it a chance is another story- sometimes they only take enough in to be able to shapeshift it into something more self serving before they throw it back, but that’s a whole other topic).

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    O_o How do you know without actually ASKING your mother if she truly liked the music. Or how do you know whether someone else is incapable of "getting" whatever idea you have? Too many assumptions seriously. I'd prefer to figure out if the assumption is actually true.

    Also you mention that you could have continued to yell louder each time if you really wanted to get the point (the name) across to your mother. But you didn't do that because it wasn't classical music. So it means it wasn't only her fault that she didn't hear the name right if we must resort to fault finding.
    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Really? It's unreasonable to make an assumption about what kind of music someone likes after having just lived with them for 20 years?
    Yep to me

    This is the sort of thing I absolutely don't make judgments on Like, preferences can be totally irrational so it's certainly possible that someone doesn't like X but likes Y for god knows what reason, even though Y shares some traits with X (but of course is not the exact same thing as X or it would be called X right :p ) It's also possible that someone's tastes change, they start to like something for some reason that they didn't before.
    So let me get this straight: after spending years around a woman who asks “Who is this?” every single time there’s music playing (Every. Single. Time.) and who only ever later asks “Who was that musician…” or establishes any deeper interest where classical music is concerned- you wouldn’t pick up on that? Ever? It’s unreasonable to assume that this particular instance of asking is probably going to be no different than the (literally) thousands of times that preceded it?

    She isn’t always asking because she’s interested in the artist- she’s asking because she’s expressing interest in the person playing the music (it is possible to reasonably figure out- after being around someone for 20 years- the difference). She incessantly asks questions as a means to feel connected to people and/or just to be talking. Because some people are like that. There aren’t many people who can handle being around my mom very much because of it- it never stops, she never runs out of things to ask questions about.

    And in short, (sorry but) I find it annoying to have someone point out that I’d made too many assumptions when their own observation about it- in itself- is actually based on too many of their own assumptions. It feels like it creates too much work for me communication-wise, and it’s actually a good example of the point I’ve been trying to make (about how there’s no one to ‘blame’). Sometimes, with some people, I can tell blanks are getting filled in with information in such a way that’s too difficult to keep track of and communication starts feeling like it’s more trouble than it’s worth. [I do think Ni- or at least NiFe- is especially sensitive in this way.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post

    I don't know if accommodate is correct for me. Maybe it is. Mostly what this looks like for me is that I choose not to try to communicate specific things or in specific ways or sometimes with specific people because I can feel the energy drain it would take to deal with their frameworks, agendas etc. A fair amount of the time, people who interpret what I say get it at least subtly wrong. They run it through their filters, their experiences, their reference points, their needs, their agendas etc etc, and feed it back to me in ways that have little to do with what I was trying to say. At that point, I have a choice: do I continue to engage, or do I not? If I continue to engage, how?
    Yeah, can totally relate to this. [And I actually found this paragraph after writing that response just above- though it's basically saying the same thing, I think.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Conflating the external human world with "the material world" seems to be one of the illusions of cultural systems that assme things like mind/body splits and/or remove intuition from some sort of "real" reality, and can seem very true when there is a hard disconnect between Ni and Se-inf.
    Have you ever read any R.D. Laing? I think you'd really dig Politics of Experience- because of this^ in particular, but also a lot of what you're saying. [I'm just throwing this out there to take or leave. Like maybe look up Laing on youtube if you're bored sometime. ] He’s all about how there’s a ‘reality’ that people collectively take for granted- and how individuals that catch glimpses of it are sometimes considered “crazy”.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #134
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    yeghor, I really appreciate your response here, acknowledging the previously unspoken dynamics. So you wrote:

    Why can't it be simply that my experiences are mine, yours are yours, and we don't have to have overlap in order for both to be valid? That's a real question.
    Because we both are trying to define the same\common things but I can see that they are not converging but diverging...if I define "red" and it doesn't sit with your definition of "red", then what's "red" actually? And, what is the thing that I've been (mis)-perceiving as "red" so far? It throws me off...

    It stems from my desire to "arm" myself with "correct" knowledge...if it turns out I was right, all is well internally...it makes me feel safe somehow...if a reference point in my internal thinking system turns out to be wrong, I start doubting the soundness of the entire system...and then I get obsessed till I can acquire the correct information to modify that reference point...

    I am also sensitive to dissemination of incorrect information (either by me or by others) in the sense that I fear it may propagate into some negative consequences in the long term...so I have this urge to provide people with correct information whenever I feel confident of my knowledge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Maybe the same question as above but from a different angle, but IMO worth asking anyway: Why do our differences of experience and focus feel to you like an argument that must be won or lost?

    (note: just FYI, in the background for me here is a conversation I had with my INFP partner last night, about shifts she has seen in me in the last year or so, that I'm mulling over. I suspect that something in this exchange might link into that, but am not sure. Will post anything relevant if it does connect)
    Because I can sense that what I perceive to be true doesn't overlap with what you perceive to be true...and it drives you away somehow when I put them forward...as if I am negating your perception...

    I don't focus on winning it but trying to convince the internal critic\buzz in me to stop, thru finding what the real perception is...on some certain issues, this may turn into a win\lose situation if the issue is somehow tied to core values of either individual...and it puts me in a conflict of interest in the sense that I would rather reach a consensus\overlap than trying to turn out to be right\correct...

    I feel I must be able to put all these in simpler terms but it's the best I can do at this time...

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    Thank you for the reply, yeghor.

    My perspective is this: We're clashing. This is truth, whether we speak it or not. And IMO the conflict is not at its core about what the topics at hand but about a clash between some pretty basic things about where we're each at at this point in our respective lives. From my end, I am less and less okay with having my experiences translated through other people's frameworks and thus distorted from what those experiences actually are. I can tell you I was much more willing to accept that kind of translation earlier in my life, but in the end it doesn't matter: This is where I am now and this is what is truly well for me personally at this time. On your end, there are the dynamics you described in your reply quoted below. My experiences seem not to mesh with what you need them to be to feel okay. Your need for that meshing leads to a response to my experiences that doesn't feel okay to me. IMO whether we speak it or not, there is a clash here. And I personally think it's better to openly acknowledge it than not and I appreciate your replies.

    So I want to be clear that to the extent that you need my experiences to fit into your frameworks, it won't be well for me to engage with you. I hope you will keep in mind that any silence on my part due to this situation is because I'm doing what is best and most well for myself. I understand that you need to do what's best and most well for you and even if I can't assist you in that, I think it's a good thing for you to do whatever is truly well for you. At this point it seems that what's right for you pulls against what's right for me, and vice versa. This is my view: It happens. It's really okay. It's just how things are sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Because we both are trying to define the same\common things but I can see that they are not converging but diverging...if I define "red" and it doesn't sit with your definition of "red", then what's "red" actually? And, what is the thing that I've been (mis)-perceiving as "red" so far? It throws me off...

    It stems from my desire to "arm" myself with "correct" knowledge...if it turns out I was right, all is well internally...it makes me feel safe somehow...if a reference point in my internal thinking system turns out to be wrong, I start doubting the soundness of the entire system...and then I get obsessed till I can acquire the correct information to modify that reference point...

    I am also sensitive to dissemination of incorrect information (either by me or by others) in the sense that I fear it may propagate into some negative consequences in the long term...so I have this urge to provide people with correct information whenever I feel confident of my knowledge...



    Because I can sense that what I perceive to be true doesn't overlap with what you perceive to be true...and it drives you away somehow when I put them forward...as if I am negating your perception...

    I don't focus on winning it but trying to convince the internal critic\buzz in me to stop, thru finding what the real perception is...on some certain issues, this may turn into a win\lose situation if the issue is somehow tied to core values of either individual...and it puts me in a conflict of interest in the sense that I would rather reach a consensus\overlap than trying to turn out to be right\correct...

    I feel I must be able to put all these in simpler terms but it's the best I can do at this time...

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, can totally relate to this. [And I actually found this paragraph after writing that response just above- though it's basically saying the same thing, I think.]
    *nods* seems so to me. I'm not accustomed to having anyone share my brain even in a limited way, so this is an interesting experience for me.

    Have you ever read any R.D. Laing? I think you'd really dig Politics of Experience- because of this^ in particular, but also a lot of what you're saying. [I'm just throwing this out there to take or leave. Like maybe look up Laing on youtube if you're bored sometime. ] He’s all about how there’s a ‘reality’ that people collectively take for granted- and how individuals that catch glimpses of it are sometimes considered “crazy”.
    I put Politics of Experience on hold at the library. Supposedly there's one copy "in storage." I'll believe it when I see it, but am interested in taking a look. Thanks for the recommendation. (I'm also on the waiting list for Blink...)

  7. #137
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Thank you for the reply, yeghor.

    My perspective is this: We're clashing.
    Yes, I disagree with your definition of red...and fear others' will end up with a false description of red...there's a visceral feeling about this in me that compels me to act against it...and I can foresee that it will put me in a conflict with you...

    And I can feel but can't understand why you are getting irritated with it...I can sense a temper behind it...a conlict brewing...cause under similar circumstances I would try to prove my point or learn from the discussion rather than brushing the other off...I don't expect others to validate my thoughts or experience but rather filter it thru their own framework, challenge it and give feedback...

    The way you brush off other people's thoughts feels too dismissive to me as if you are devaluing the other and considering them to be below your caliber...it feels wrong somehow...it irritates my Fe I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    From my end, I am less and less okay with having my experiences translated through other people's frameworks and thus distorted from what those experiences actually are.
    But that defeats the purpose of sharing them...and once they are shared publicly you are opening them up to public scrutiny...why the need to get irritated when others do not interpret them the way you expect them to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    My experiences seem not to mesh with what you need them to be to feel okay. Your need for that meshing leads to a response to my experiences that doesn't feel okay to me. IMO whether we speak it or not, there is a clash here. And I personally think it's better to openly acknowledge it than not and I appreciate your replies.
    I appreciate it too...but I also feel a need to go against my Fe and tell about my Ni conclusions...so I will end up not respecting your wish to disengage...you will anyway though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    So I want to be clear that to the extent that you need my experiences to fit into your frameworks, it won't be well for me to engage with you. I hope you will keep in mind that any silence on my part due to this situation is because I'm doing what is best and most well for myself. I understand that you need to do what's best and most well for you and even if I can't assist you in that, I think it's a good thing for you to do whatever is truly well for you. At this point it seems that what's right for you pulls against what's right for me, and vice versa. This is my view: It happens. It's really okay. It's just how things are sometimes.
    I appreciate it...though I fear I will end up looking bad by following my own pull, which consequently will leave me and my thoughts isolated...

    You' ve been irritated with others a few times before when they assumed ownership of your thoughts or distorted/misinterpreted them...I think you are possessive of your thoughts and ideas...they are your prized possessions...your craft...and how you value your self worth...

    And the way you've dealt with those occassions felt alien too me...in comparison, it felt to me as if you had disengaged too easily and without too much remorse...Even though I aspire to be able to set boundaries like that in future it feels somehow wrong to me at the moment...I cannot identify with...You are my senior but I still cannot see myself acting that way in future...

    And the temper thing and Se focus etc...All those accumulating data keeps raising this question in me..."If she's an INFJ, then what the hell am I?" I now fear someone will come along and ascribe this to my desire to be unique but it's not...

    So long story short, I think you are a Ti-dom with a vey well developed Ni...that's why you are sensitive about your ideas, thoughts...they are your prized possessions...just like how a Fi-dom takes pride in his/her feelings...and dislikes it when others misinterpret their feelings or try to dictate them what to think feel...

    Your focus on Se domain I believe stems from your Se-aux and irritation with human social constructs from your Fe-inf...It may also explain how you are able to disengage without too much qualms, and perhaps the temper I sense in you...

    I've enjoyed sharing my thoughts with you WB...thanks for that..I'll continue responding where I deem necessary whether you respond back or not...I don't want this to be misconstrued as harassment or something...

    All in all, I believe you are an ISTP with a well developed Ni...and also just another human being trying to find her way in the world...

    So I wish you a untroubled and joyful journey...and all the best...

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    All in all, I believe you are an ISTP with a well developed Ni...and also just another human being trying to find her way in the world...
    Pulling this out because ... I want it really highlighted that this is what you assess based on your perspective, this is where your need for correct information leads you. Amazing. Simply amazing.

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    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Pulling this out because ... I want it really highlighted that this is what you assess based on your perspective, this is where your need for correct information leads you. Amazing. Simply amazing.
    Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So long story short, I think you are a Ti-dom with a vey well developed Ni...that's why you are sensitive about your ideas, thoughts...they are your prized possessions...just like how a Fi-dom takes pride in his/her feelings...and dislikes it when others misinterpret their feelings or try to dictate them what to think feel...
    Possession of thoughts and ideas is indicative of both Ji and Pi. Pi is more focused on ideas and patterns (specifically Ji and Pi dominants, yes, this includes Si)*, Ji is more focused on frameworks and idiosyncratically categorized information.

    *Just watched Zero Dark Thirty, and a demonstration of this would be the protagonist's (can't remember her name, mostly sure INxJ) steadfastness for her own prediction/assessment about Bin Laden.

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