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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Ni is not a quick process. The ‘end’ shows up first- and not even clearly, but there will be the distinct feeling that there’s an ‘end’ which doesn’t match what I’m being told the ‘end’ is or what others generally believe the ‘end’ to be. That initial feeling is instant, yes- but waiting for the reason why I don’t feel like I can go along with something is anything but instant (as Hard initially explained on the first page, there’s an urge to go back and retrace all the steps that lead to the conclusion- a conclusion that sometimes/often isn’t even clear to me to begin with, I'll only know the conclusion being presented to me is 'off' somehow).
    @yeghor, the above pretty much gets at a crucial difference between Ni and my (aux/tert) judging functions in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So for INFJs, Ni function allows them to see nuances...whereas their Fe and Ti balances the ethereal nature of N with some rigidity...They corporealize its spirit...Provide a vessel for it to take form and survive and exist in the material world?
    It's not the material world, IMO. It's the external human-systems world. For example, there is unfortunately a difference between the flow and logics of this planet's ecosystems (which as far as I can tell, aren't inconsistent with the physics of my Ni landscape), and the human systems created from/within the culture/society in which I live.

    Conflating the external human world with "the material world" seems to be one of the illusions of cultural systems that assme things like mind/body splits and/or remove intuition from some sort of "real" reality, and can seem very true when there is a hard disconnect between Ni and Se-inf.

    That said, I think the underlying idea in the above quote from you is interesting. In my experience, Fe-aux and Ti-tert feel artificial and constraining, but seem to be one obvious way I can interact with the layer of human narratives (both kinds of judging function) that seem to be necessary around me in what I'm starting to believe is a judging-function-heavy society. (I started thinking about it when reading this quote from this comment in the discussion, and especially the bolded part of quote from that comment):

    Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, such types are indeed the most fruitless of men.
    But, viewed from a higher standpoint, such men are living evidence of the fact that this rich and
    varied world with its overflowing and intoxicating life is not purely external, but also exists
    within. These types are admittedly one sided demonstrations of Nature, but they are an
    educational experience for the man who refuses to be blinded by the intellectual mode of the day.
    In their own way, men with such an attitude are educators and promoters of culture. Their life
    teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest
    fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our
    civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate
    overprizing of instruction by means of word and method.
    Which leads me to this comment, with which I wholeheartedly agree:

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that sometimes it's not worth the effort. Sometimes communication is more work than it's worth, that doesn't mean there's anyone to 'blame'.
    I've been giving myself permission to follow my actual energy needs on this point in most if not all of my participation on this site. I kind of dual-track situations, meaning I know when and how I am supposed to allow an energy drain in order to be more comprehensible (Fe or Fe-Ti) or polite (Fe) to others, and at the same time, I keep making the decision to see what happens when I don't allow that. It's an interesting experience.

  2. #122
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    Btw did you see my previous reply to you? I guess you didn't get the time yet to respond?

    I swear to God. Pe: Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?





    I'll get to it when I get to it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I swear to God. Pe: Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
    Actually, no. I was simply making sure it didn't get skipped accidentally.

    So fuck the pigeonholing ;P


    I'll get to it when I get to it.
    Which is exactly what I was speaking of here: "I guess you didn't get the time yet to respond?"

    I have no idea how I could've been more explicit about how I'm not trying to be impatient and not trying to place time related pressure on you.

    But yes I saw before that people never notice when I am as explicit about it as possible.

    Anyway, feel free to take your time to respond, obviously.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophiaDeep View Post
    This function evokes the most of the interest around people as I noticed and is bounded by a certain mystery. So what Ni realy is?
    Jungs himself sad that Ni can't be really described and put into box, because it functions more like a "mind power." Jung describes the ablity of Ni to spot future happening out of the thin air, just based on hunches. Ni users don't know how they've come to the realization and often have troubles explaining this. The realizations of future happening and meanings happen sudden. The Ni user experiences these hunches and is led by them in his life.
    Now time for a bit of thinking...Jung really described Ni users as freaks with super powers, that have magical hunches and believe them in real life. This way of viewing person with such visions as psychologically healthy seems rather controversial, more, when we realize that Ni users often fail to logically explain their visions, or proove them in sense of physics. So the type based on this description seems to rather suffer from schizophrenia, or other schizoid based illnes.
    If we want Ni to sound less as a diagnose of shizophrenia and more as real cognitive psychological function, that can develope in mentaly healthy individual, the description could be further more descriptive about the real cognitive process.
    The Ni can be seen as a function that allows the user to see patterns and symbols, that are hidden to other people, but this necessarily doesn't mean the pattern is not here. The Ni user with his ablity to see through objects, to its real core, might notice symbols and meanings within the object, but this doesn't have to happen consciously. The user can notice a lot of these meanings and symbols inside of the object unconsciously and process the realization of objects only latter, without knowing where the realization comes from.
    This might make Ni to seem a bit less super-natural and more acceptable for people to understand it.
    If anyone wants to add something, or correct me, feel free to share your informations.
    I think there is nothing special about Ni. Its just big picture thinking.

    Also Jung definitions of rational and irrational functions are from a very specific psychological point.
    But from a traditional stand point, or from a normal point if you want, there is nothing irrational about Intuition.
    Intuition observes the patterns, and based on those patterns is able to predict what it already saw in the past happening. Its nothing special...just careful observation and than a quick appreciation of the outcome.

    I mean...even magic is rational...you got the magician and the stick...magic conforms to the laws of reason.

  5. #125
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    @yeghor, the above pretty much gets at a crucial difference between Ni and my (aux/tert) judging functions in my experience.
    My experience is similar too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It's not the material world, IMO. It's the external human-systems world. For example, there is unfortunately a difference between the flow and logics of this planet's ecosystems (which as far as I can tell, aren't inconsistent with the physics of my Ni landscape), and the human systems created from/within the culture/society in which I live.
    Both are different strata of the material world I believe...Humans are also a part of the eco-system...What you refer as the "external human system" is the Fe or Te strata I believe...whereas the planet's ecosystem is about the Se strata...I can't pinpoint the difference between Se and Te strata unfortunately...Te is also tainted with human influence whereas Se is more instinctual\primal...?

    Perhaps Te assigns some utility\use to objects (including humans) in the environment and tries to arrange them somehow whereas Se is more about the inherent value\purpose\flow of external objects and tries to adapt to them rather than trying to re-structure them...? So Se strata of the external world is the part that is independent of human influence...and it gets tainted somehow by human-made frameworks?

    So what would be the ideal human and earth eco-system overlap?

    OTOH, Ni landscape is an imprint (model) of the external world perceived\cognized thru our external functions...Our external functions signify the strata of the external data that we are more attuned to I guess...

    So Ni landscape in INFJs would be an imprint of external Fe and Se data...consider Ni like a camera and Fe and Se are the lenses that it receives light thru...The photograph taken varies in apperance (like a distinct hue or tint) if different lenses (such as Te for instance) are used...Don't know yet if the imprint analogy can be expanded to other internal functions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Conflating the external human world with "the material world" seems to be one of the illusions of cultural systems that assme things like mind/body splits and/or remove intuition from some sort of "real" reality, and can seem very true when there is a hard disconnect between Ni and Se-inf.
    Building on what I've said above, Ni and Ti are removed from reality in that they are isolated within the person...they need and outlet to express the ideas and concepts generated within the individual...They process the reality from within based on the data perceived from the environment...

    Ni-Ti deductions would be geared\focused towards identifying and rectifying particularly the Fe strata (i.e. human interactions, society etc.) of the external world...

    About the mind body split, a dominant introverted function coupled with an inferior S I think is the closest one can get to paralysis without actually being paralyzed…When there’s already data waiting for analysis inside of me, I need to shut down inflow of further S data cause otherwise it paralyzes, suffocates or overloads me…I get irritated at those times…

    Not really related but as a sidenote, I think when in dialogue with people I keep my perceiving mode open until I can reach an accurate enough understanding of what’s being said…I believe I have this reactionless and wide eyed look in my face at those times, and due to lack of feedback on my end, some of the time people start doubting my intellect and misconstrue it as my failure to understand what they are saying, and even start treating me if I were stupid…whereas I am actually trying to keep the data flowing in before coming to a consclusion…

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    That said, I think the underlying idea in the above quote from you is interesting. In my experience, Fe-aux and Ti-tert feel artificial and constraining, but seem to be one obvious way I can interact with the layer of human narratives (both kinds of judging function) that seem to be necessary around me in what I'm starting to believe is a judging-function-heavy society
    What do you mean by human narratives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    (I started thinking about it when reading this quote from this comment in the discussion, and especially the bolded part of quote from that comment):

    Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, such types are indeed the most fruitless of men. But, viewed from a higher standpoint, such men are living evidence of the fact that this rich and varied world with its overflowing and intoxicating life is not purely external, but also exists within. These types are admittedly one sided demonstrations of Nature, but they are an educational experience for the man who refuses to be blinded by the intellectual mode of the day.

    In their own way, men with such an attitude are educators and promoters of culture. Their life teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate overprizing of instruction by means of word and method.
    So these people lead\instruct by example\deed rather than words? They should still be externalizing their internal deductions somehow so that others can be inspired...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I've been giving myself permission to follow my actual energy needs on this point in most if not all of my participation on this site. I kind of dual-track situations, meaning I know when and how I am supposed to allow an energy drain in order to be more comprehensible (Fe or Fe-Ti) or polite (Fe) to others, and at the same time, I keep making the decision to see what happens when I don't allow that. It's an interesting experience.
    So you choose not to accommodate people? How does it make you feel? Why does it feel draining otherwise? I try to accommodate people so long as there’s a reciprocal effort by the other party…and it kinda energizes itself without draining me…

    In cases where there’s no or relatively less reciprocity, I wish to be able to follow my actual energy needs but the Fe-pull to accommodate is too strong and if I go against it, it creates an internal friction\stress in me…

    And what have you deduced from the overall experience so far?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So what would be the ideal human and earth eco-system overlap?
    I don't do "ideal" scenarios. They feel fake/artificial to me.

    What do you mean by human narratives?
    For the purpose of this discussion, it's easiest for me to say that human narratives come out of the application of Jungian judging functions (all/any judging function). F narratives are concerned with values, T narratives are concerned with logics.

    So these people lead\instruct by example\deed rather than words? They should still be externalizing their internal deductions somehow so that others can be inspired...?
    I didn't like the rest of the quote all that much because of how it discussed the people under scrutiny. Leads to all sorts of "shoulds" and quite frankly intellectual/values masturbation IMO (I wish I had a better word for it but there you go. So I almost cut the first part because of it, and it seems like that's the part you're looking at here. My interest in that quote was the bolded part, so will put it out by itself here but with the first part of the comment in which it was quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    I don't think Ni can be understood intellectually since doing so requires some kind of reasoning. Ni are sort of like the Zen koans which required the subject to suspend all kind of reasoning and instead reconcile contradictions in order to reach an intuitive understanding of the nature of reality. Jung stated that introverted irrational functions(Si,Ni) were the hardest to explain to others since it stand in glaring contrast to our current mode of operation that values logical and rationalistic processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest
    fault, viz. their incommunicability
    , we may understand one of the greatest errors of our
    civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate
    overprizing of instruction by means of word and method
    .
    For me, what's relevant about that quote is that it shines light on a value set in the society in which I live: an over-valuing of what Jung calls statement and presentation (narratives), an undervaluing of moving well without framing, explaining, rationalizing etc.

    So you choose not to accommodate people? How does it make you feel? Why does it feel draining otherwise? I try to accommodate people so long as there’s a reciprocal effort by the other party…and it kinda energizes itself without draining me…

    In cases where there’s no or relatively less reciprocity, I wish to be able to follow my actual energy needs but the Fe-pull to accommodate is too strong and if I go against it, it creates an internal friction\stress in me…

    And what have you deduced from the overall experience so far?
    I don't know if accommodate is correct for me. Maybe it is. Mostly what this looks like for me is that I choose not to try to communicate specific things or in specific ways or sometimes with specific people because I can feel the energy drain it would take to deal with their frameworks, agendas etc. A fair amount of the time, people who interpret what I say get it at least subtly wrong. They run it through their filters, their experiences, their reference points, their needs, their agendas etc etc, and feed it back to me in ways that have little to do with what I was trying to say. At that point, I have a choice: do I continue to engage, or do I not? If I continue to engage, how?

    As for why it's draining - There's a LOT I just don't bother to say these days in general and on this site in particular, because for me it's like tedious work that I finally don't feel hardcore obligated to do. Dealing with mostly unacknowledged external (to me) frameworks and filters and and agendas feels like a pull away from my core perception (Ni and Ni-Se) into what I experience as a plastic/artificial relatively shallow world where we're having to deal with meanings or words or frameworks (and/or, indirectly, agendas) instead of the deeper resonances. I guess I feel like I've spent so much of my adult life dealing with these artificial/shallower levels of frameworks and filters and agendas that I want to minimize that process in certain arenas and certain ways now. I mean, in interactions where there are strong narrative frameworks, agendas etc, I can almost "see" or "feel" the shape of them, but bringing them into consciousness and articulation takes energy (Fe and Ti) for me.

    As for what I have learned (not deduced) so far from my experiences with this - I think this shift is actually a good thing for me. I can integrate aspects of this approach into various parts of my life in different ways.

    As for this part of what you wrote in particular:

    In cases where there’s no or relatively less reciprocity, I wish to be able to follow my actual energy needs but the Fe-pull to accommodate is too strong and if I go against it, it creates an internal friction\stress in me…
    Yep. I can still feel that in myself, but somehow it's gotten far less loud/overwhelming. And I don't know if this is relevant, yeghor, but here's what comes up for me to say about this: When I first began the process I called re-opening my perception (what I could refer to now, on this website, as a return to trusting Ni and, increasingly, Ni-Se perception as guides for my actions), I identified a couple of strong fears about what could happen if I did this. One of those fears was, I was afraid I'd end up completely alone. Not just romantically, but in general. I was afraid that my perception would put me into a different world somehow, afraid that I would become incomprehensible to others .. afraid that this shift would mean that that I wouldn't be able to have human connections in my life. As I type this, it becomes obvious to me that this fear came up because I had learned to have connections with others based at least partly on my willingness to accommodate all sorts of frameworks and narratives and agendas that are, for me, artificial and sometimes even alien. I was afraid that if I wasn't willing to do that, I would be completely alone, afraid that me doing that was required for me to connect with other people.

    Well, it's been almost 15 years since I started this whole thing, and my fear hasn't come true. I haven't lacked for human connection at all as I've moved along this trajectory. I find that the quality of my connections feels better to me now. I know I'm not done with the trajectory, I know that this current new-ish thing of deliberately not bothering to communicate certain things in various situations is part of the ongoing process. I'm just not afraid anymore that any of this will mean I must be alone. That fear has shown itself to be false so far and it doesn't have a hold on me anymore.

    So I don't know if that's relevant for you or not, it just popped up into my consciousness, so I decided to share it.

  7. #127
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    For the purpose of this discussion, it's easiest for me to say that human narratives come out of the application of Jungian judging functions (all/any judging function). F narratives are concerned with values, T narratives are concerned with logics.
    Judging functions try to structure the environment...that stems from an inability to go with the flow of things perhaps...Se and Ne manipulate their environment as well but they are perhaps focused more on the immediate environment rather than an entire framework...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I didn't like the rest of the quote all that much because of how it discussed the people under scrutiny. Leads to all sorts of "shoulds" and quite frankly intellectual/values masturbation IMO (I wish I had a better word for it but there you go. So I almost cut the first part because of it, and it seems like that's the part you're looking at here.
    He considers such people to be a valuable but overlooked\untapped asset\resource for a better narrative in the collective...and the thing about being seen as an asset\commodity somehow feels like being preyed upon, boxed\forced into a specific role...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    For me, what's relevant about that quote is that it shines light on a value set in the society in which I live: an over-valuing of what Jung calls statement and presentation (narratives), an undervaluing of moving well without framing, explaining, rationalizing etc.
    Wouldn't it run the risk of rendering the person less accountable to others in absence of a narrative? Perhaps Jung wasn't dismissing all narratives but aiming to replace some with others that he deemed to be better for the collective...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Relationships should have a natural feel to them...shouldn't (most of the time) cost too much upkeep...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It feels like acting to you...that's why it costs energy...and you want to act as natural as the circumstances allow...? I feel similar too...In my case the draining thing is caused by not being able to find a feel-good sweet spot between my Ni perception about how I should ideally act and how my Fe dictates me to act...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    As for what I have learned (not deduced) so far from my experiences with this - I think this shift is actually a good thing for me. I can integrate aspects of this approach into various parts of my life in different ways.
    Why the distinction between "learned" and "deduced" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It used to be relevant but rather in my teens and early 20s (though it rears its head from time to time)...My fear most of the time has been less related to ending up alone but rather being hurt by others if I do not allow them to drain my energy...i.e. if I do not accommodate their negative behaviour but act more assertive...it's related to my distrust of my Se capabilities...It would be an achievement for me to be able to wield Se (to manipulate my environment) even at a tertiary level...I think your fear seems to be stemming more from Fe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I don't want to jinx it but I envy you...and am happy for you...hope I can conquer my fears some day...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    So I don't know if that's relevant for you or not, it just popped up into my consciousness, so I decided to share it.
    It is...thanks...

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    It feels like acting to you...that's why it costs energy...and you want to act as natural as the circumstances allow...? I feel similar too...In my case the draining thing is caused by not being able to find a feel-good sweet spot between my Ni perception about how I should ideally act and how my Fe dictates me to act...
    No, it doesn't feel like acting to me. Though I hear you that it feels that way for you. For me, it feels just exactly as I described it the first time: like a pull away from my core perception (Ni and Ni-Se) into what I experience as a plastic/artificial relatively shallow world where we're having to deal with meanings or words or frameworks (and/or, indirectly, agendas) instead of the deeper resonances. To expand a bit, it feels to me like I have entered a world where everything is made of some sort of thin plastic and nothing really resonates (for example, picture a bell made of thin plastic, I don't think it could ring).

    Why the distinction between "learned" and "deduced" ?
    For me, deduced is a technical term related to a particular kind of logic, deductive in contrast to inductive. In this association, deductive is top-down, overly theoretical. Learning, for me, is ground-up process based on experience.

  9. #129
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    No, it doesn't feel like acting to me. Though I hear you that it feels that way for you. For me, it feels just exactly as I described it the first time: like a pull away from my core perception (Ni and Ni-Se) into what I experience as a plastic/artificial relatively shallow world where we're having to deal with meanings or words or frameworks (and/or, indirectly, agendas) instead of the deeper resonances. To expand a bit, it feels to me like I have entered a world where everything is made of some sort of thin plastic and nothing really resonates (for example, picture a bell made of thin plastic, I don't think it could ring).
    Deeper resonances such as?

    How do the people inside that world\narrative look from your Ni-Se perspective?

    Isn't centering on Ni-Se perception another human narrative in itself (even though it exits on a relatively smaller scale at the moment)? I think, on a broaders scale\framework, that narrative would look something like the way of life of a native american (or similar) culture...

    Edit: a hunter-gatherer culture perhaps...

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Deeper resonances such as?
    Such as I experience in Ni and Ni-Se perceptual arenas. I don't have much more to say about it than that.

    How do the people inside that world\narrative look from your Ni-Se perspective?
    My attention is on the world and its parameters.

    Isn't centering on Ni-Se perception another human narrative in itself (even though it exits on a relatively smaller scale at the moment)?
    I really don't like rhetorical questions. Anyway, even though it seems verty much like a rhetorical question, my answer is - no, not from my perspective. If you don't have a lived reference point for what direct perception is like (apart from judging narratives), I can't help with words or dialogue.

    I think, on a broaders scale\framework, that narrative would look something like the way of life of a native american (or similar) culture...

    Edit: a hunter-gatherer culture perhaps...
    As for native/indigenous cultural systems, I haven't had lived experience as a member of such a system so I can't speak about that. And, too, there's the matter of ongoing attempted cultural genocide.

    You may be trying to get at whether there could be a human cultural system that doesn't devalue Ni-Se perception. If so, I myself don't know. But from my perspective, it's important to separate the perception itself from if and how any given cultural group values the perception. These are two different things in my view, and it's relatively obvious to me that they are.

    As a note: I have been trying and trying to be patient with, correct for where it's most intense, and kind of "go around" an ongoing pull I feel from you in the dialogue starting when you posted the blank canvas data ... I don't know how to describe it, something about theoretical debate, proving points, trying to take my lived experience and use it to support your points or something like that. I can feel the shape of it but probably am not describing it accurately. In any case, I don't like it, and my patience and energy is wearing thin. (And to be clear, the fact that I personally don't like it doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with you or how you're approaching the discussion. It just means it's not where I'm at).
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 03-08-2014 at 02:12 AM. Reason: typo like whoa

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