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  1. #1
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Default Fe users rebelling against social norms

    Jung saw Fe users as people who align their opinions and views towards social norms. A painting is beautiful because other people see it this way, morals and ethics are also based on society's norms, decisions are made objectively.
    However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.
    It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who surpressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

    Thoughts on that?
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  2. #2
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Jung saw Fe users as people who align their opinions and views towards social norms. A painting is beautiful because other people see it this way, morals and ethics are also based on society's norms, decisions are made objectively.
    However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.
    It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who suppressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

    Thoughts on that?
    Well, from my perspective a big part of Fe is concern and awareness of the well-being of others. For me, that outweighs obedience to social norms. If I see a social norm that is getting in the way of what I perceive to be just, or in other's best interest then I challenge it.
    I am a feminist, even though in the environment I was raised in this is not socially acceptable.

    I also wear socks with sandals sometimes. But, that's just because Birkenstocks are way to comfortable to not wear all year.
    Friends, waffles, work

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  3. #3
    garbage
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    I detest when this comes up.

    It'd be akin to claiming that all Te-users living during and just after Copernicus's time believed that the sun revolved around the earth.

    Nobody seems to recognize this. Norms are norms.

  4. #4
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @Showbread already hit the nail on the head, but I'll just echo that Fe is just a pattern of thinking that takes interrelationships in the environment into account.

    If a Fe user perceives that everyone is miserable, it is their natural inclination to alleviate that suffering, just like for any other F. Fe users will tend to have a better grasp on group consensus, external perception of interaction patterns, and the natural conclusions of a behavior, which makes them more attentive to and skilled with aligning people and values. I would also say that more Fe dom/aux will tend to utilize strategies that capitalize on the power of groups and, depending on Ni or Si, will tend to make use either of subconsciously-grounded shared archetypes or pre-existing structures and definitions to achieve their goals, whereas FP types and Ts will tend to ignore those aspects of the equation.

    But by no means does that lock Fe types into being controlled by social mores. All people have the gift of individual judgment and are free within themselves to follow it, and it is clear from life that they do.

  5. #5
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'm more concerned about people being "morally correct" (which I guess could be seen as a set of subjective evaluations, but in my belief, there are rights and wrongs). I don't really care about social norms.
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
    RobertCalifornia: shes my homegurl
    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

    thoughtlost: I am not really religious. I just like getting free stuff from churches.

  6. #6
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    Well, from my perspective a big part of Fe is concern and awareness of the well-being of others. For me, that outweighs obedience to social norms. If I see a social norm that is getting in the way of what I perceive to be just, or in other's best interest then I challenge it.
    Yes that's my idea of Fe too. It puts the well-being of others above the norms. But Jung's conception of Fe feels different. He focuses more on the conforming rather than the social aspects.
    The thing is that these things can become contradictionary. Just take the Nazi era in Germany and Austria as an example. You can't wish the well-being of minorities and support the Nazi-regime at the same time. And I believe the majority of people supported the discrimination of the minorities (not the brutal killings in the concetration camps, they were not monsters).
    However, I think Fe users in general put the well-being of others first when they are directly connected to an individual or a group of people and put the norms first when they are in no relation to the affected people. My grandma does that a lot. She's an ISFJ and she is quick to judge people like drug abusers, but is very empathetic when she talks to one.
    If that is true the motivations of Mandela and King are clear, but I still have a somewhat superficial knowledge of how Fe really works.

    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    I detest when this comes up.

    It'd be akin to claiming that all Te-users living during and just after Copernicus's time believed that the sun revolved around the earth.

    Nobody seems to recognize this. Norms are norms.
    That's right, but I think the difference lies in the way how someone makes their opinion.
    A heavy Te user would rather believe the general accepted, since they see it as objective data. A Ti user would believe the same, if there isn't any other data to form an opinion.
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  7. #7
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    There's a really good star trek episode about this.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_...xt_Generation)
    {The Diplomat}
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  8. #8
    Member the resident's Avatar
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    Fe is the most misunderstood type.

    And the most interesting.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    That's right, but I think the difference lies in the way how someone makes their opinion.
    A heavy Te user would rather believe the general accepted, since they see it as objective data. A Ti user would believe the same, if there isn't any other data to form an opinion.
    Why would consensus have to be objective data? What about groupthink???

    This never made sense to me, that is, relating Te to automatically accepting generally accepted stuff

  10. #10
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    All my Fe wants to do is burn down everything like it was the joker. That's inferior Fe though.

    INFJ Fe is combined with Ni so it makes it big picture. They align with a country or the whole world.

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