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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meanwhile, knowledge of Fe norms is just that, knowledge and ease of use, and you can either accept or rebel.
    THANK you.

    I think I've posted this once or twice. But here it is again:


    0:56 mark.

  2. #22
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    THANK you.

    I think I've posted this once or twice. But here it is again:


    0:56 mark.
    "You don't understand what the politics are, do you, Dave? You never have."
    "No, I do. I just don't care."

    ^ Story of my life.
    Never wrestle with a pig. You will get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinmara View Post
    "You don't understand what the politics are, do you, Dave? You never have."
    "No, I do. I just don't care."

    ^ Story of my life.
    Yeah, I'm gonna have to make that my signature. Maybe the sentiment will get through everyone's skulls if they're exposed to it enough.

  4. #24
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    INxx fueled by Ni runs to its own drummer -- seeing visions in their entirety without being able to articulate how they got there, it's simply "true."

    Meanwhile, knowledge of Fe norms is just that, knowledge and ease of use, and you can either accept or rebel. (The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.) It's not a big deal for Fe folk to go against established norms. My INFJ teen daughter is strong-willed and tends to read everything as a power struggle, even when I'm operating out of TP "Informative" mode... she'll interpret what was just information I was giving her to frame and guide a decision as trying to TELL her what to do, as her first mode of operation. (EDIT: The amusing part is that she acted fine around me the last episode of this, then bitched to my ex about it and how mad she was. Gotta love that tact.)

    I don't think it's that complicated; one has to be careful not to apply MBTI too rigidly, especially in light of the natural variance within each type.
    I agree on that. The individual is always a little different from the type and I have made that expeirence by comparing 2 ISFJs I know. One has some borderline traits, I believe, and even tested ESTP, when she was younger, but she will grow into a healthy ISFJ, if the trend goes on. The other one is really a duty-fulfiller and very casual.
    You can't spot many similarities on first look, but you will get it when you start looking on the inside, seeing what drives them and what motivations they have.
    So yeah, I guess Fe can either accept or rebel against norms, but I haven't found one yet who is completely indifferent.
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    I was thinking about Fe in different positions when I read this. Like badger said, his inferior Fe is mostly a drive for arson, while a lot of Fe-dom and aux people are saying social rules are really not as important as truly bring aware of people's feelings and looking out for them in a more, um, mentally active way?

    This brings me to think about Fe tert. I wonder if these Fe users would be the most prone to rely on social norms, since the same concept would be important to them, but the function is just not as strongly developed. Just a thought.

    Also S/N distinctions I think play a factor. Intuitive types are going to be more prone to looking outside of the given structures and conventions , while sensors might skillfully maneuver within them.

    Any thoughts?
    Tert Fe is more like they get to choose if they want to go along with it or not. Since it's not a main function they can choose to manipulate it or use it.

  6. #26
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think one thing that we Fi users fail to realise is that Fe recognises that there are many types of 'social consensus'. There is not a single way to do what is best for the group, there may be many, existing on many different levels. Some of these things might be entirely contradictory. Some might be short-sighted and some might be considering long term goals. Some might be conservative or backward and some might be revolutionary. How Fe user decides which is best at any one time, I'm not sure - they'd probably be better at explaining this.

    If you think of Fe as being focussed on the greater good, you can see why a Fe-user would rebel against the social mores if they felt that they weren't in line with that.

    Shh, you're fine! I think you put it very well, actually. No worries!

    I don't really have anything to say here that hasn't already been said. I will just say that I am another one who definitely clashes with people who staunchly hold onto many 'normal' social values, though. More so when they are trying to force their ways onto me; it's incredibly annoying, though I think perhaps it might be even more annoying for them to have to deal with someone who won't just sit there and take it like a good little doormat since they are likely not used to that. Points of contention that they bring up to pick at can get downright petty to me, and yet they act like it's the end of the freaking world and demonize me when I stand up for myself and others...

  7. #27
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    I use Fe, and for me it's more like a one-to-one interpersonal calculation. I say all the right things to your face, even if I disagree beneath the surface. To me, that's just the way I express my "politeness" or reach out to others.

    It doesn't make me a conformist--I'm still capable of forming underlying principles from which I will not budge. And I have actually rebelled against social norms, many times. I might use Fe to convey my ideas to people, but ultimately, I'm not changing what I am beneath a few token acknowledgements toward manners, customs, and the agreed upon way of doing things.

    I'm still the person I am, but Fe is just how I navigate interpersonal interactions. It's a cognitive process, not a "brainwashed" gene or an impulse to blindly conform.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Second post. Just read this.

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    This brings me to think about Fe tert. I wonder if these Fe users would be the most prone to rely on social norms, since the same concept would be important to them, but the function is just not as strongly developed. Just a thought.
    In what sense do you mean "rely on" social norms, though? As a method of navigating society, or as something that actively controls my movements in life?

    I do find myself adapting and sometimes hesitating to make the first move socially, because I'm adapting to the others' perspectives. Then again, there are times when I'm totally socially oblivious and didn't even NOTICE I violated some rule of etiquette. In tertiary position, I find that it's a tool more than anything, something I can use when I need it but that I have had to refine and master. It takes concentration for me to do so, but I still have much more control over it than, say, an Fe-inferior.

    I definitely do not buy social norms wholesale, I just understand the value of playing to them (hence why Fe is sometimes thought of as "manipulative"). I also have the vague sense that I "suck" at Fe-related things, like "social skills" and "knowing the right thing to say". I guess in a manner of speaking, that does subject me to the norms...in a negative sense. But plenty of other times I'm simply oblivious, or I wonder why it is that we all have to __________(insert mass behavior) anyway.

    Also S/N distinctions I think play a factor. Intuitive types are going to be more prone to looking outside of the given structures and conventions , while sensors might skillfully maneuver within them.
    That's interesting. I would have said I worked within the system myself (Ne-dom), but I do so in order to beat the system. When I use Fe specifically in service of Ne, it's generally for forwarding my own ideas.

    I'll have to think about that one, though.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Jung saw Fe-users as people who align their opinions and views towards social norms. […]
    Coming in late here...

    As others have pointed out, Fe is more about awareness of social norms rather than blindly obeying norms.

    One aspect of Fe that's often forgotten is that Fe-Doms and Fe-Auxs are often leaders: Hosts, facilitators, MCs, trend-setters, etc.: ENFJ and ESFJ are cousin to ENTJ and ESTJ; INFJ and ISFJ are cousin to INTJ and ISTJ. Fe-users have people skills, but they use them to set the agenda and bring people into line, not just to blindly follow social dictates and be people-pleasers. Awareness of interactive energy gives them scope to set and manipulate the agenda, which gives them a lot of power in groups.

    I had an INFJ boss at work for a decade in a big bureaucratic organization. He was an empire-builder, always expanding the number of staff under his leadership. If you were another manager at the same level as him, then he poached your territory and stole your staff. If you were his boss, then watch out--he deposed about 3 bosses and took over their positions and power. And he always kept the managers who were directly under him a little off-balance and unsure of their power, so they couldn't do to him what he did to others.

    Eventually it took two ENTJ and ESTJ bosses above him to spot his game, force him into retirement, and dismantle the huge bureaucratic department that he had constructed.

    Fe-users are often natural leaders. That's worth keeping in mind as an offset against the stereotype that Fe-users are people-pleasers and wimps.

  10. #30
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinmara View Post
    "You don't understand what the politics are, do you, Dave? You never have."
    "No, I do. I just don't care."

    ^ Story of my life.
    ^ Same thing goes for the Social variant, for what it's worth.

    It just means you tend to see certain things socially that others don't necessarily see. Does mean you're more likely to navigate with them in mind. Doesn't mean you necessarily find them compelling.

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