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  1. #11
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the resident View Post
    Fe is the most misunderstood type.

    And the most interesting.
    It does get frustrating to see it taken for oppressive frivolity by those who don't use it as a first or second function. I think, hey, that bullshit you speak of is some people's first language, and it's as real and heartfelt and complicated for them as your own is for you. But then again, I've never participated in the argument. Fe is just a systematic lens, neutral until fused with its user.
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  2. #12
    Member the resident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    It does get frustrating to see it taken for oppressive frivolity by those who don't use it as a first or second function. I think, hey, that bullshit you speak of is some people's first language, and it's as real and heartfelt and complicated for them as your own is for you. But then again, I've never participated in the argument. Fe is just a systematic lens, neutral until fused with its user.
    Blaming ills on the system is no reason for justification.

    Jung argues that the functions are inherently biased.
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    "Verbally adept and a good reader of people and situations, you have the ability to identify unjust authority, rebel against tyranny and verbally spar against it."

    "The 368 is very dynamic. This is the toughest fighter on the Enneagram."

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  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    When the norms are wrong, you have to try to fight them.

    A lot of women my age have all these domestic expectations on them. You are supposed to sacrifice yourself for your family and you are supposed to love to cook. You aren't allowed to resent your kids until they are teenagers and then you are almost required to resent them.

    I would bet money most of us do not internally align with all that stuff and I find it oppressive. I make it a point to communicate my feelings on those matters when they come up in conversation. If my looking 'bad' makes someone else feel like less of a failure or less defective, I'm okay with taking that hit. I feel like I'm in a position where I can afford to take it. I'd like us to get those masks off and really talk.

    Social ills are the same kind of thing. A lot of our norms are based on generations of inequality and oppression. Those must be fought as much as possible. I can't do a lot about it right now because my kids are still dependent on me, but I fully intend to be one of those granny protesters. I do what little bit I can now.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the resident View Post
    Blaming ills on the system is no reason for justification.

    Jung argues that the functions are inherently biased.
    I do not mean to justify anything, but mean that it is the person with the function who chooses to express it for right or wrong. All responsibility for ills is on the person, is what I was attempting to say.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Fe like other functions can be repressed if the situation calls for it and types with non dom Fe tend to do this more habitually than Fe doms. Also Fe is ultimately a subjective function(as it deals with values), even tho the subjective values are influenced by external world -> some of the values that are brought to the Fe user from the external world can be rebelled against if it goes against the persons own values(which were in one way or another influenced by somthing external in the past).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #16
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I think one thing that we Fi users fail to realise is that Fe recognises that there are many types of 'social consensus'. There is not a single way to do what is best for the group, there may be many, existing on many different levels. Some of these things might be entirely contradictory. Some might be short-sighted and some might be considering long term goals. Some might be conservative or backward and some might be revolutionary. How Fe user decides which is best at any one time, I'm not sure - they'd probably be better at explaining this.

    If you think of Fe as being focussed on the greater good, you can see why a Fe-user would rebel against the social mores if they felt that they weren't in line with that.

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  7. #17
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    I was thinking about Fe in different positions when I read this. Like badger said, his inferior Fe is mostly a drive for arson, while a lot of Fe-dom and aux people are saying social rules are really not as important as truly bring aware of people's feelings and looking out for them in a more, um, mentally active way?

    This brings me to think about Fe tert. I wonder if these Fe users would be the most prone to rely on social norms, since the same concept would be important to them, but the function is just not as strongly developed. Just a thought.

    Also S/N distinctions I think play a factor. Intuitive types are going to be more prone to looking outside of the given structures and conventions , while sensors might skillfully maneuver within them.

    Any thoughts?
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    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  8. #18
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    When one social norm contradicts another, even those with an affinity for normalcy must resist.

  9. #19
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I think the main thing about this is that Fe sees itself as an active part of the external moral landscape. In a way, we are one. This is why we consciously bend to fit it, and this is why we bend it to fit us. This is why Fe is often considered 'fake' and 'manipulative'; we are always actively bending something. For us, it is the same thing: we are one with the external landscape, so we do whatever it takes to smooth out the wrinkles. It's a natural dance for us. There are things that go forward and things that go back. You push forward and you yield. You are the same thing as the world.

    So, couple this with some sort of a vision, and it's not surprising to see Fe users rebelling against 'social norms'. Whatever is our business is automatically the world's business. If we strongly believe in something, we will change the world to fit it.

    All this is always open to discussion, btw (before you scream 'tyrant!')
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.

    It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who surpressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

    Thoughts on that?
    INxx fueled by Ni runs to its own drummer -- seeing visions in their entirety without being able to articulate how they got there, it's simply "true."

    Meanwhile, knowledge of Fe norms is just that, knowledge and ease of use, and you can either accept or rebel. (The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.) It's not a big deal for Fe folk to go against established norms. My INFJ teen daughter is strong-willed and tends to read everything as a power struggle, even when I'm operating out of TP "Informative" mode... she'll interpret what was just information I was giving her to frame and guide a decision as trying to TELL her what to do, as her first mode of operation. (EDIT: The amusing part is that she acted fine around me the last episode of this, then bitched to my ex about it and how mad she was. Gotta love that tact.)

    I don't think it's that complicated; one has to be careful not to apply MBTI too rigidly, especially in light of the natural variance within each type.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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