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Thread: Ne vs Se

  1. #31
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    I think that Ne is sending out multiple scenarios/possibilities onto external objects and analyzing the data reflected back onto itself...It's running a simulation in it's mind and analyzing the outcome of the simulation...making connections between the data sent and data reflected back...it's "actively" poking the external object for reactions/cracks/fissures...thereby weeding out multiple possibilities into a few probable ones...

    An ENTP for instance may be reading and making connections between Ne and Fe data...The external object reacts angrily, sadly, happily when I do X, Y, Z...

    An ENFP OTOH may be doing the same for Ne and Te data...INTJs associate Te with logistical/utilitarian data...ENFPs may perhaps shed more light on how reading Te data play out for them...

    Ni on the other hand in INFJs is "passively" synthesizing incoming Fe and Se data into a single connected pattern and checking whether there's a discrepancy/inconsistency between the two...(like between declared intent and real intent for instance...like between what is being said and what is being implied...like between what the mouth says and what the entire body language says)

    A Se-dom ESTP is perhaps gathering and making connections between Se and Fe data and uses those connections to analyze and decide on his/her stance towards external objects...He/she sends out Se data (an indimidating body language for instance) and then analyzes external object's reaction to that Se data...and then decides whether the external object poses a threat or not...

    A Se-dom ESFP is perhaps doing the same for Se and Te and uses it to navigate his/her way in the external world...

    These are not final/definite conclusions...just theories about how it may work...

  2. #32
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Se-nsual vs Ne-ver ending.
    Letz take ova da real worldz.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    *LOUD, ATTENTION-VAMPIRIC SIGH*

    You guys just don't get it...

    An Se-dom, say an ESTP, could scan his environment for objective sensory data and then, using his Ti, analyze it. He could look at the texture or luster of an object, observe how it moves through the air, and if he honed his Se enough, predict how the physical object might behave under certain circumstances.

    Now the ESTP doesn't come out of the womb pre-trained to be a basketball champ or Spartan warrior. Sports of today are huge events demonstrative of how even a function like Se needs to be properly nurtured, or it's useless. The natural predilection for an Se toddler is to spring to his feet and run through the fields for hours. It is not, however, to leap perfectly through a series of hoops in the air with perfect precision. That is a learned Se skill.

    That said, the Ne uses his function in a parallel way. If Ne is properly honed, it most certainly can make very effective connections between events and their causes. It cannot, however, scan the physical environment on its own.
    Ne-users often prefer books to television, because the information provided is already refined for them.

    Ne-users are not scanning their environments for connections from birth. They are in fact making connections between information that is already explicitly stated, they just handle it better in this raw form than Sensors. Ne works vicariously.

    SPs need to learn how to read. They need to be taught how to connect their physical observations to concepts, or they will miss things in the world around them.

    NPs need to open their eyes. They need to be taught how to connect their concepts to their physical environment which they are unaware of, or they will miss things in the world around them.

    Don't let the statistics fool you, there are probably droves of mistyped NPs out there. The smart ones have learned to connect Ne to other functions and they're the only ones typing N.
    This is interesting. So you're saying that for NPs to hone their perception they must first learn and develop critical theory skills? So we take in structures of reading the world and then learn to apply them. That is an interesting thought. I think you're right.

    And so this is the equivalent of a SP training their mind to read their environment. Like a baseball player who faces and swings his bat at many pitches; after a while his mind learns to read the way the ball moves and he can instinctive respond, swinging his bat in just the right way so as to strike the ball with maximum impact. It's about internalising the way of things so you can learn to respond instinctively to the world around you.

    @yeghor you're looking at this from a odd and unexpected angle. I'm not sure what you're thinking here. What do you mean that Pe is about poking holes in things? This is a strange image to me - it seems so destructive and antagonistic, and not at all how it feels to use it. Perhaps these things look different from the outside.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #34
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    @yeghor you're looking at this from a odd and unexpected angle. I'm not sure what you're thinking here. What do you mean that Pe is about poking holes in things? This is a strange image to me - it seems so destructive and antagonistic, and not at all how it feels to use it. Perhaps these things look different from the outside.
    It's just a theory SK...Our external functions are ways that we interact with the external world...I assume they are not just outlets for expression but also inlets for external information...Once taken inside, the data is handled and analyzed by our internal functions...???

    I as an INFJ (i.e. Fe-aux) for instance am using Fe to send Fe packets into the environment and absorbing back the Fe reaction reflected back on to me (or rather filtering the reflected data thru my Fe-aux filter)...Yeah...they are filters that work both ways....

    My antogonistic description of Ne/Se is based on my interactions with RL ESxPs and ENTPs...Ne/Se-aux may be weaker in effect relative to Ne/Se-dom therefore the former perhaps might not be coming across as that antagonistic...

    Dominant extraverted functions perhaps have greater effect on the external world and the people in it whereas in aux position they are more passive and shadowed by the dominant introverted function...

    I am just putting ideas forward in raw form for discussion...

  5. #35
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Pe, as a perceiving process, is passive. It does not actively ping anything. It does not actively scan anything. It's like standing in front of a firefighter's hose and letting the water come full blast.

    Like Pi, it's an irrational process, meaning, it is open until a rational process takes over from the dominant position (or as a secondary function, a rational function turns to it in service of itself.) "Taking over" can either be productive or interfering. "Taking over" is where cause and effect happens, not in the perceiving process itself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #36
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Pe, as a perceiving process, is passive. It does not actively ping anything. It does not actively scan anything. It's like standing in front of a firefighter's hose and letting the water come full blast.

    Like Pi, it's an irrational process, meaning, it is open until a rational process takes over from the dominant position (or as a secondary function, a rational function turns to it in service of itself.) "Taking over" can either be productive or interfering. "Taking over" is where cause and effect happens, not in the perceiving process itself.
    Does that mean perceiving processes are the only type of processes thru which one can gather information from within or without?

    I was more like thinking that our external functions (be them judging or perceiving) are the boundaryies of our ego that make contact with the external/physical world...They are our facade, our interface with the world...therefore they would/should be capable of working both ways, to flavor (format) our output to the external world as well as to filter and allow incoming information...

    Whereas our internal functions are parts of our ego that aren't visible to the external world...They deal with what our external functions allow inside ourselves thru the ego boundary...

    As for Ne/Se-dom, I've seen that they are actively gauging my reactions to certain stimuli (scenarios/possibilities) that they consciously choose to send my way...they are proactively trying to decipher what's beneath my facade/interface...to find out what makes me tick...

    Ni-dom does the same but in a more passive/reactive manner...it gathers data already available in the background (or whatever comes in its way) but doesn't try to elicit further data thru some forced reaction...it doesn't try to force the external object to react...

    So based on this, INFJs gather Fe-Se raw data from the external world and use Ni-Ti to analyze and make sense of that data...??

  7. #37
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    I'm taking ninjutsu with an ENTP 8w9. The difference is, he kills people without understanding why, and I kill people knowing exactly why my arm is flying in x direction.

    oh, also he believes he isn't touching anything because he is just made of atoms and he is surrounded by other atom clusters trying to intercept his own atom clusters.

    Eventually I will destroy my sensei and take his power.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I just spent over an hour to write a huge wall of text explaining everything and it got fucked up and lost in the bit world and not going to do it again
    Erm... there's an autosave function, so you could've just pressed restore

    Unless you mean you accidentally deleted the whole thing, though even then it could be restored if acting quickly enough

    Too bad though


    ill just post this
    OK I got that one.


    In this case, no element of objective sensation is excluded and nothing repressed (with the exception of the subjective share [p. 457] already mentioned). Sensation has a preferential objective determination, and those objects which release the strongest sensation are decisive for the individual's psychology. The result of this is a pronounced sensuous hold to the object.
    Uhm yeah, that was posted already. What's an Se direction/goal like? And a Ti one? (I mean I can generally see what these would be, but if you got something more to say about it, I'll be curious to hear it.)


    What comes to that term automaticity, it combines many different things to it and doesent separate for example habits, procedural memory and flow state, thus the term is undifferentiated.
    The term is still pretty clear in terms of how it's related to mastery of something and to consciousness. And so when considering that, how is it reconciled with the idea of a refined (=differentiated) function being more conscious?

    Though I can see one reason why consciousness is good for a differentiated function, because its (consciousness') function is control over processing stuff. And so having consciousness for a (jungian) function obviously means more control over direction of things .

    I still have the issue mentioned about automaticity though.

    But if this is what you were writing about for an hour before it got lost, well, I guess bad luck I can only hope you feel like writing a bit of it again

    Mhmm and I got another issue about it, the way intuition is explained (in MBTI anyway), it often reminds me of simple automaticity though I'm sure the two shouldn't be the same thing.


    Differentiation on a neural level would be not forming separate neural pathways in the brains for things.
    What would it be on a neural level, then?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    A Se-dom ESTP is perhaps gathering and making connections between Se and Fe data and uses those connections to analyze and decide on his/her stance towards external objects...He/she sends out Se data (an indimidating body language for instance) and then analyzes external object's reaction to that Se data...and then decides whether the external object poses a threat or not...
    That's enneagram, not Se.

    Jungian Se has got nothing to do with intimidation, Jung actually describes Se doms as "jovial fellows" or something like that.

    Socionics Se is an entirely different animal

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    I'm taking ninjutsu with an ENTP 8w9. The difference is, he kills people without understanding why, and I kill people knowing exactly why my arm is flying in x direction.

    oh, also he believes he isn't touching anything because he is just made of atoms and he is surrounded by other atom clusters trying to intercept his own atom clusters.

    Eventually I will destroy my sensei and take his power.
    I dont think this is an Se-Ne difference. I mean my ENTP friend is the same as yours, but me on the other hand, i need to know(and do know :P ) exactly how to hit(and why to hit like that) before even trying(and also prefer to know where i would hit if i would hit someone before trying).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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