User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 63

Thread: Ne vs Se

  1. #11
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    729 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEE Ne
    Posts
    5,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fghw View Post
    1) What is 2+2

    Se: 4
    Ne: A stock phrase used to represent a standard and very simple math problem

    Guess who got that question right?
    gotta be honest, i usually hate those kinds of function illustrations. but i really like this one. and it's something i think i pick up on with Se users and relate to as an Ne user. math's alright for me, even interesting and exciting, if i'm able to think around it at a theoretical level. i imagine Se users being much more comfortable with applied math.

    i can see how this preference could be applied to other subjects of thought and used to determine which function a person is using. thanks.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  2. #12
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    The conclusions that Se-doms come to seem more drastic and limiting (lower Ni), especially when unhealthy or less self-aware. I don't usually expect Ne-doms to say things like "All girls do such-and-such", "All *blank* people should *blank*", or "anyone who does so-and-so is yadda-yadda-yadda", at least not seriously.
    Oh man no Stansmith ^^Ne doms do this same thing...and it's what I personally find most challenging to deal with...with regards to ExFPs.

    The only difference here is the nature of Ne prevents the individual from committing to a definitive value judgment - that's all. And so instead of "All girls do such-and-such"...it's "All girls do such-and-such...right? I mean, I think so... Or maybe not. That's probably funny that I thought that. But, you know, you have to admit...it really does seem like all girls..." <-Here's where a lot of the ENFP paranoia/anxiety comes from.

    ^^I mean, in many ways we are wired to do that same thing...(half-wired.) With Se and Ne constantly being pulled into the future...we don't want to spend time pondering whether the girl that hurt us was an exception...or the rule. And if they (Se) catch a few more instances of what looks like 'girls doing such-and-such' (the behavior that hurt us or irritated us)...Se will go ahead and commit to that conclusion...allowing the individual to move forward with this new understanding of what 'all' girls do that will be *protective* in some way.

    It is at this same point where Ne gets stuck. They want to commit...they feel they would more safely navigate the environment if they could just commit to a conclusion...but again, the nature of Ne prevents them from doing that. I'm pretty sure that inferior Ni & Si function the same in this regard. There is no Ni system or Si framework to plug information into...so the alternative becomes 'sweeping generalizations' or a lifetime prescription to Xanax.

    *I should be more clear and say that what you will see out of Ne is shifting back and forth between two or more extremes when they are in this place or 'stuck.'

  3. #13
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,365

    Default

    Se-nsual vs Ne-ver ending.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #14
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    729 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEE Ne
    Posts
    5,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    There is no Ni system or Si framework to plug information into...so the alternative becomes 'sweeping generalizations' or a lifetime prescription to Xanax.
    lol is it bad that i might choose the latter over making sweeping generalizations?

    *I should be more clear and say that what you will see out of Ne is shifting back and forth between two or more extremes when they are in this place or 'stuck.'
    THIS is something i do when i feel like i *need* to make a judgment about something and try to force myself to. hold on to two polar opposite conclusions and bounce back and forth, trying to collect data for either side. ugh, not fun.

    EDIT: i should say, that when i'm doing that last thing, it's always in hopes that neither is true, and that with more data, i'll be able to come back to a more realistic-feeling, and thus more comforting, gray area. even in those moments, i'm quite aware that no extreme is probable.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  5. #15
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    S is the information that comes through your eyes and ears. Si users trust and rely(/put more weight on when processing with other functions) more on what the sensing triggers within than on the sensing experience itself and might not focus that much on the actual sensing experience itself. Se users put more weight/trust/etc more on the sensing experience itself.

    N is the information that comes from the unconscious processes and comes to your consciousness through gut feelings(and the results can be what other functions would consciously get to). Ne gets its triggers from the external world and "add" to the external trigger.

    Also Si and Ne are heavily connected and i dont have time to give further explanations now. Maybe ill add something later.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rt-simple.html

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...137-ne-si.html
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  6. #16
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    @INTP's description of intuition from one of the linked threads is really great, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    intuition is a perception by intermediate links and you only get the results of that whole chain of associations to your conscious mind in forms of instincts, metaphors or symbols, thus it is an perception via unconscious.
    Of course I say this as a Ni-dom, so not sure it will help with the Ne/Se distinction in this thread. My only experience with Se is in strong service to Ni, which affects its flavor considerably.

  7. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    SeNi
    Enneagram
    8+7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SeTi
    Posts
    940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    gotta be honest, i usually hate those kinds of function illustrations. but i really like this one. and it's something i think i pick up on with Se users and relate to as an Ne user. math's alright for me, even interesting and exciting, if i'm able to think around it at a theoretical level. i imagine Se users being much more comfortable with applied math.
    Yes that was a good illustration. Yes that's how I solve questions. 2+2 = 4.

    Otoh, staying with the maths example, I like the theory part in it too but the way I learned maths stuff was through practice more than theory. Well actually it's not as black and white in my case, let me describe this better. This process I will be describing applies to maths and just about anything else that deals with logical concepts. So part of this is just logic stuff, but I think the Se/Ni is in there too.

    I start with the concept that's being introduced. I prefer it if it's introduced through some examples. In the case of maths specifically I will intuitively feel it usually right away. Like it was in my mind somewhere already. I just needed to discover it. With other topics where more is needed than just pure logic (only mathematics equals pure logic), I will still want to get to an intuitive feeling of the logic but it may take longer to get there. At the same time, I get down to practicing the concept through a few examples (e.g. calculate stuff, whatnot) and it will then be something I won't ever truly forget. It will be part of my implicit automatic knowledge, I will not have to think about it again.

    I'm def. Se/Ni type, though some people see my Ni being stronger than my Se

    Note I wouldn't want to confuse implicit knowledge with jungian Intuition because that sort of access to knowledge is a generic function of the brain, not MBTI related. Everyone has it. It's usually the result of much practice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Oh man no Stansmith ^^Ne doms do this same thing...and it's what I personally find most challenging to deal with...with regards to ExFPs.

    The only difference here is the nature of Ne prevents the individual from committing to a definitive value judgment - that's all. And so instead of "All girls do such-and-such"...it's "All girls do such-and-such...right? I mean, I think so... Or maybe not. That's probably funny that I thought that. But, you know, you have to admit...it really does seem like all girls..." <-Here's where a lot of the ENFP paranoia/anxiety comes from.
    Uhh I don't relate to either. I don't like to use generalizations in this fashion about people.


    ^^I mean, in many ways we are wired to do that same thing...(half-wired.) With Se and Ne constantly being pulled into the future...we don't want to spend time pondering whether the girl that hurt us was an exception...or the rule. And if they (Se) catch a few more instances of what looks like 'girls doing such-and-such' (the behavior that hurt us or irritated us)...Se will go ahead and commit to that conclusion...allowing the individual to move forward with this new understanding of what 'all' girls do that will be *protective* in some way.
    I can have instinctual understanding of stuff in this fashion. Well the girl example is really bad though, because that just would never make any sense to me that all girls are the same about whatever. (Except for what girls all have *by definition*. :p)

    So where I do this kind of learning is more to do with other objects. Unless I misunderstand the example.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    S is the information that comes through your eyes and ears. Si users trust and rely(/put more weight on when processing with other functions) more on what the sensing triggers within than on the sensing experience itself and might not focus that much on the actual sensing experience itself. Se users put more weight/trust/etc more on the sensing experience itself.

    N is the information that comes from the unconscious processes and comes to your consciousness through gut feelings(and the results can be what other functions would consciously get to). Ne gets its triggers from the external world and "add" to the external trigger.
    That doesn't make complete sense to me. Se is often also associated with a gut sense, what's the difference with that? Or does that just come from Se/Ni interaction?

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    That doesn't make complete sense to me. Se is often also associated with a gut sense, what's the difference with that? Or does that just come from Se/Ni interaction?
    I dont know who associates Se with gut feelings, but thats just stupid. Sure Ni can(and will in many situations) be "fed" by Se, but its not Se that gives the gut feelings, Se gives conscious perceptions.


    I underlined some important things:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung Psych types Se
    Sensation, in the extraverted attitude, is most definitely conditioned by the object. As sense-perception, sensation is naturally dependent upon the object. But, just as naturally, it is also dependent upon the subject; hence, there is also a subjective sensation, which after its kind is entirely different from the objective. In the extraverted attitude this subjective share of sensation, in so far as its conscious application is concerned, is either inhibited or repressed(cuz focusing on that subjective side would be Si). As an irrational function, sensation is equally repressed, whenever a rational function, thinking or feeling, possesses the priority, ie. it can be said to have a conscious function, only in so far as the rational attitude of consciousness permits accidental perceptions to become conscious contents; in short, realizes them. The function of sense is, of course, absolute in the stricter sense; for example, everything is seen or heard to the farthest physiological possibility, but not everything attains that threshold value which a perception must possess in order to be also apperceived. It is a different matter when sensation itself possesses priority, instead of merely seconding another function. In this case, no element of objective sensation is excluded and nothing repressed (with the exception of the subjective share [p. 457] already mentioned). Sensation has a preferential objective determination, and those objects which release the strongest sensation are decisive for the individual's psychology. The result of this is a pronounced sensuous hold to the object. Sensation, therefore, is a vital function, equipped with the potentest [sic] vital instinct. In so far as objects release sensations, they matter; and, in so far as it lies within the power of sensation, they are also fully accepted into consciousness, whether compatible with reasoned judgment or not. As a function its sole criterion of value is the strength of the sensation as conditioned by its objective qualities. Accordingly, all objective processes, in so far as they release sensations at all, make their appearance in consciousness. It is, however, only concrete, sensuously perceived objects or processes which excite sensations in the extraverted attitude; exclusively those, in fact, which everyone in all times and places would sense as concrete. Hence, the orientation of such an individual corresponds with purely concrete reality. The judging, rational functions are subordinated to the concrete facts of sensation, and, accordingly, possess the qualities of inferior differentiation, i.e. they are marked by a certain negativity, with infantile and archaic tendencies. The function most affected by the repression, is, naturally, the one standing opposite to sensation, viz. intuition, the function of unconscious perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by psytypes Ne
    Intuition as the function of unconscious perception is wholly directed upon outer objects in the extraverted attitude. Because, in the main, intuition is an unconscious process, the conscious apprehension of its nature is a very difficult matter. In consciousness, the intuitive function is represented by a certain attitude of expectation, a perceptive and penetrating vision, wherein only the subsequent result can prove, in every case, how much was [p. 462] 'perceived-into', and how much actually lay in the object.

    Just as sensation, when given the priority, is not a mere reactive process of no further importance for the object, but is almost an action which seizes and shapes the object, so it is with intuition, which is by no means a mere perception, or awareness, but an active, creative process that builds into the object just as much as it takes out. But, because this process extracts the perception unconsciously, it also produces an unconscious effect in the object. The primary function of intuition is to transmit mere images, or perceptions of relations and conditions, which could be gained by the other functions, either not at all, or only by very roundabout ways. Such images have the value of definite discernments, and have a decisive bearing upon action, whenever intuition is given the chief weight; in which case, psychic adaptation is based almost exclusively upon intuition. Thinking, feeling, and sensation are relatively repressed; of these, sensation is the one principally affected, because, as the conscious function of sense, it offers the greatest obstacle to intuition. Sensation disturbs intuition's clear, unbiassed, na[umlaut]ive awareness with its importunate sensuous stimuli; for these direct the glance upon the physical superficies, hence upon the very things round and beyond which intuition tries to peer. But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation; indeed, the expectant attitude towards outer objects may, with almost equal probability, avail itself of sensation. Hence, for intuition really to become paramount, sensation must to a large extent be suppressed. I am now speaking of sensation as the simple and direct sense-reaction, an almost definite physiological and psychic datum. This must be expressly established beforehand, because, if I ask the intuitive how he is [p. 463] orientated, he will speak of things which are quite indistinguishable from sense-perceptions. Frequently he will even make use of the term 'sensation'. He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision. They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive's unconscious attitude(I think i mentioned this bias thing somewhere). In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive's consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so.

    Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fullysatisfied. Intuition seeks to discover possibilities in the objective situation; hence as a mere tributary function (viz. when not in the position of priority) it is also the instrument which, in the presence of a hopelessly blocked situation, works automatically towards the issue, which no other function could discover. Where intuition has the priority, every ordinary situation in life seems like a closed room, which intuition has to open. It is constantly seeking outlets and fresh possibilities in external life. In a very short time every actual situation becomes a prison to the intuitive; it burdens him like a chain, prompting a compelling need for solution. At times objects would seem to have an almost exaggerated value, should they chance to represent the idea of a severance or release that might lead to the discovery of a new possibility. Yet no sooner have they performed their office, serving intuition as a ladder or a bridge, than they [p. 464] appear to have no further value, and are discarded as mere burdensome appendages. A fact is acknowledged only in so far as it opens up fresh possibilities of advancing beyond it and of releasing the individual from its operation. Emerging possibilities are compelling motives from which intuition cannot escape and to which all else must be sacrificed.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  9. #19
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fghw View Post
    1) What is 2+2

    Se: 4
    Ne: A stock phrase used to represent a standard and very simple math problem

    Guess who got that question right?


    Moving right along...

    The best way to think of Pe functions is as vibing off external input. Like a surfer riding a wave, reading and responding to the shifting forces as they come to him. The brilliance of Se is the ability to read the shifting reality. SPs don't just note the obvious stuff everyone sees. They're seeing reality in a much purer and clearer way, which is more revealing of the 'truth' of what is going on (eg. the emotions being felt, the flow of the conversation, the heart of the problem, the way things fit together, the lay of the land etc). The most useful description I read about Se described it as contextual; it's specific to the experience. Think of that surfer and the wave: he can't decide how to approach it and which moves to make beforehand. He must wait until he's up on the board and can really feel and react to how that individual wave behaves. Planning what to do would be pointless and restrictive, because the SP knows the best thing is to wait to you can see the context and can respond accordingly. And his ability to read the wave is much better than others, because he's not distracted by other stuff and can instead open himself up to the reality so much more. He will see the things others miss.

    Ne does a similar thing but it's riding the wave of conceptual ideas; reading the flow of the underlying reality. People make the mistake of thinking that this means Ne users know more than Se users, which is just plain wrong; both the contextual reality and the underlying reality are important and it takes insight to read either. Ne simply looks at the reality outside its present context. It strips the reality of its bounds, fragments it and extrapolates the parts outwards, connecting it to other fragments. The flow of riding the wave comes from reading which direction the fragments lead. This means it perceives with less depth and totality (compared with Se) when it comes to specific experiences, and instead perceives with breadth and a sense of the fundamental elements.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #20
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Se-dom : sends out sensory data pockets to ping the environment and analyzes the sensory data reflected back from the environment (body language mostly?) and then acts on that...

    Ne-dom : sends out mental/conceptual (?) data pockets to ping the environment and analyzes the [insert proper adjective] data reflected back from the environment (trick questions to weed out alternate perspectives/possibilities?) and then acts on that...

    I've come to see Ne-dom function somewhat similar to sonic waves that certain animals use to navigate their environment...like bats or dolphins...

    Whereas Se-dom function would be analogous to animals that have keen physical sensory abilities like sight, smell, taste etc. in such a case...

    Why did certain animals develop ability to see better in dark whereas some others abandoned sight altogether I wonder?

Similar Threads

  1. INFP vs. ISFP(Ne vs Se).
    By LadyLazarus in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 03-09-2014, 08:09 PM
  2. Si vs Se / Ni vs Ne
    By Ribonuke in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-13-2013, 12:30 PM
  3. Ne/Si vs Se/Ni
    By WALMART in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-27-2013, 03:49 PM
  4. Explanation for SJs dislike of change [Si vs Ne/Ni/Se]
    By Snow Turtle in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-23-2008, 06:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO