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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    On the Ni shifting perspective thing, an addition/expansion to what I wrote earlier:

    I'm thinking more about this Ni "shifting perspective" piece. Something about your specific example and its flavor distracted me but the shifting perspective thing is relevant IMO.

    I found a thread with comments that say it in a way that resonates more clearly with how I experience it. This may have been precisely what you were saying/trying to get at in the OP, just in different words. Anyway, these comments are more accurate to my experience/perception without the distraction I (for some reason) got from your example:





    All of the quoted material makes sense to me from Ni-dom experience with perspective shifting, and the bolded descriptions are particularly accurate to my experience.

    I think that the Ni subjectivity within a larger landscape may sensitize our perception to the importance of specific location in affecting perception (did that make sense at all outside my head? It's clear to me but an odd sentence).

    In case that didn't make any sense outside my head .... Meaning: when it comes to Ni perception, I know that I'm in a huge landscape and am perceiving it from where I specifically stand/am located in that moment. I know that I haven't created this landscape, it is outside of me. I know I can perceive from my own specific location in any given moment, and I also know that there are other locations in the landscape that reveal different perceptions due to different location in the larger whole. I also seem to have some freedom of movement in the landscape, so am able to move around to perceive from at least some other locations (one at a time, but the movement can be relatively fast).

    (Also, I haven't gone through the whole thread from which the above-quoted descriptions emerge, but there may be some additional useful info there from Ni-dom perspectives. Though it is a really old thread.) eta: not so much.
    @Werebudgie, @Amargith, @OrangeAppled (for you, this is a newly updated and revised version!), @Azure Flame

    I'll take my stab at Ni, as an alpha-male INTJ. (Amateurs! )
    I'm borrowing from my own earlier writings elsewhere, revising and extending them for this audience.

    There are several different ways to describe Ni -- but it is important to keep in mind that Ni is synergistic, so any one of these descriptions may be inadequate or misleading.

    1) Ni is "sudden insight". Think of shuffling across a carpet in your stocking feet in mid-winter; then reaching out to touch something metal with your finger. *ZAP*!
    The *spark* you see, the unbearably intense, instantaneous, electric blue bolt -- that is Ni in action.

    2) Ni is like a spider in a web. Think of a spider sitting in the middle of a web (consider a regular web, such as a common garden spider, not an irregular web, such as a black widow).
    The web is composed of regular spokes with a crossbar spiral superimposed on it. Anything that touches the web will register: not only will it vibrate at the point of contact, but the vibrations
    will propagate along the web according to where the nearest cross-linked strands are, and according to the strength and timing of the vibrations.
    Much as the spider will pick up on this, so too, the possessor of Ni will be able to know just what strands of Ni are being hit by a stimulus, and be able to "back-fill" more information about the stimulus
    than is immediately apparent to the observer.

    3) If you don't like the idea of the spider, consider the idea of when you are watching digital TV, and there is a storm, or electrical interference, and the picture temporarily breaks up and pixellates.
    (You can sometimes see this with a slow download on YouTube as well.) This resembles Ni in two ways.
    First, by looking at the common characteristics of those blobs of pixels which *do* show up, the Ni can match a resemblance of what is seen, to known or expected objects, and infer what the blobs which
    *do* appear, "ought" to have been. Second, it often happens that when this pixellation occurs, that the blobs first begin by being of a size on the same order as that of the screen, and then begin to coalesce
    to blobs of finer and finer resolution. Ni can sometimes look at the *trend* in a what a blob is doing over time, and *extrapolate the process* to figure out what the end product "should have been."
    Similar to the convergence of the expansion of a function in a basis set, or and "I see what you did there" in advance -- "I see where this is *going*."

    4) Another way to look at this is that the Ni has a "map" of the world in their had: not necessarily a visual map, although many Ni's especially INTJs, seem to be *visually-spatially* oriented.
    Instead, this is a verbal, or a *conceptual* map -- but with one important distinction. Instead of each spatial point corresponding to a spot in the real world, or to an individual concept,
    each point consists of (think object-oriented programming addresses!) a mathematical *pointer* to where in memory to FIND information about that item, together with a tightly-coupled linked list
    of the most closely associated items, and, either pointers to several more distantly-related items, or a special hash table with a master list of the pointers for ALL possibly associated items.
    Then, when an item comes up, just as the spider triangulates the vibrations on the web, and runs along the thread silkenly, silently, and quickly, so too, the *mind* of the Ni will follow the hidden
    pointers to draw up ALL information related to an item of interest, in parallel, and instantaneously, without laborious sequential searching, or having to generate the list of associated items AND then
    go and look them up. And since all of this takes place internally, and invisibly to the observer, and at a high rate of speed, it looks like magic. This is the (in)famous INTJ Laser.
    Also, this type of storage is a tremendous way to save memory, since there are many implicit details which come up "automatically" on the fly, just as you don't bother to tell someone in your
    hometown what your area code is, when you are giving them your phone number.

    5) Hearkening back to the spark analogy earlier, think of what happens when one enters a dark room and turns on the light just for an instant (either the light bulb blows out, or it is switched off again immediately). One's mind gets a brief glimpse, registering on the retina, of the items in the room: no details, but enough to tell the table from the sofa, the sofa from the chairs, whether the room is carpeted or not, where the cat is sitting. So too, when the Ni switches on, the mind is given a brief but POWERFUL sense of the big picture. This is important for two reasons, which sound the same, but are each subtly and powerfully different. The first is, if your Ni-retinal-image of the room tells you where the cat is, and whether the room is carpeted, and the position of the furniture, then that may tell you a lot more about the "backstory" of the room: dining rooms are not carpeted, if the room has a piano, it is most likely NOT a kitchen, if the cat is content that tells you about the atmosphere of the home, etc. All of these can be "backfilled" at leisure (so to speak) while your neural pathways are composing your sentences to whoever-it-is you are talking to about the insight, other pathways are supplying the backstory on little-used backchannels which can be mixed into your description from the "fluff buffer" where one stores filler words and irrelevant details, as the conversation suggests. The other reason the big picture is important, will be explained after the next description of Ni, because it depends on both this description and the next, and incorporates elements of both.

    6) Continuing the analogy to the spider, and moving more to multidimensional topology (henceforth "multisurface")[*] Some people have described Ni in the mind of a INTJ as a series of rapidly-flashing *visual* images which cycle through all kinds of objects, events, and topics (for the visually oriented). For those not so visually oriented, consider the idea of a multidimensional surface (think of one of those computer-generated grids which show space-time warping in the vicinity of a black hole, but much more variegated and puckered, and generalized to N dimensions). Ni is like this surface in two ways. First, similar to the light-bulb/retinal image analogy above, Ni will take an instantaneous snapshot of the multidimensional surface, showing the peaks, valleys, wrinkles, holes, and other topology. Just like the snapshot of the room, a brief glimpse is all that is necessary to give the large-scale features, which are stored for a time in memory. Having the big picture makes explicit knowledge of small-level details unnecessary, since if one's retinal-picture *knows* that the surface is just heading down a steep hill at some particular region, then one simply doesn't have to go slow while looking out for potholes or speedbumps. Also, some Ni's have the capability of taking multiple snapshots of the multisurface from different perspectives (think shining a light on a golf course in the dark from different directions, think partial derivatives) to gain even MORE information than a single snapshot would have yielded.

    It gets a little tricky now, so hang on.

    There are three different features of Ni which are associated with the multisurface.

    First, and to clear it out of the way -- this multisurface analogy makes possible the very rare, but *extremely* powerful, "faster than light" or "warp drive" capability of the INTJ. What this is, is when the Ni takes a snapshot of the multisurface in question, and something about it looks...an ALARM! bell goes off inside the INTJ mind, that "we've seen this before!" or "this reduces to an already solved problem." At this point, the INTJ simply skips ahead (using the linked-list-of-pointers) to retrieve the known situation *in toto* from their mind, and instantaneously both correlates elements of the existing multisurface to the one just now being considered, and *backfills* all of the relevant internal topography and relations between items, from the old surface to the new. The INTJ can do this at an ENORMOUS rate of speed, since at that point, we're just regurgitating something which is already known like the back of our hand, or re-reading a favorite well-loved book, anyway.


    The second point, is that whether you consider a spider's web, a linked list, or a multisurface, the Ni map of the world, once it is complete, allows the Ni user to do two things;
    first, if you give them a point in isolation, they can usually identify where it is within the big picture almost instantly.
    second, the Ni need not have a 'solid picture' to compare to; it can (like the grid depiction of a multisurface, or like predicting the pixellation on a TV in advance) infer the big
    picture from fragmentary or incomplete data.

    The third point has to do with the multiple snapshots from different perspectives, of the multisurface, in the Ni's mind.
    There is a socionomics site (and I agree with many, Socionomics is just "frog in a blender MBTI") which describes different types of mental processing, some of which are used by the Ni:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

    Here are the key elements from there:

    The Evolution–Involution dichotomy confers different scales of examination in a problem. Evolutionary types see small to large. Details are distinct. Scale is specific and precise like geographical map. Involutionary types on the other hand, see large to small. Details are vague. Scale is general and broad. The scale will alternate in Negativists, since they think more alternatively, but the same priority will remain.


    The Ni can start with fragmentary details, and extrapolate the trend to generate a big-picture map; or the INTJ can start with the big-picture map and interpolate, or backfill by analogy to known cases, the details.

    Causal-Determinist Cognition

    Indeed, in building a long chain of cause and effect, it is difficult to avoid the danger of circularity, the risk of falling into circulus vitiosus—a vicious circle in the proof. Kurt Gödel's theorem on the incompleteness of formal systems, asserts that any sufficiently complex system of rules is either inconsistent, or contains conclusions that can be neither proven nor refuted by the rules of that system. This established limits in the applicability of formal logic. Using the deductive-axiomatic method, the medieval Scholastics in particular, attempted to rigorously prove the existence of God. Resulting from closure of causes in terms of effects, they circularly arrived at a definition of God as the thought which thinks of itself.

    The INTJ, who has Ni, also can pull in Causal-Determinst Cognition through their Te.


    Holographical-Panoramic Cognition

    Holographic cognition has a characteristic penetrating, skeletal-revealing, 'x-ray' nature. It unhesitatingly cuts away details and nuances, giving a coarsely generalized representation of the subject. Take for example the two orthogonal cross-sections of a cylinder: the horizontal section looks like a circle, and the vertical section looks like a rectangle. Two different perspectives of an indivisible whole which, when superimposed in the mind, produces transition to a higher level of understanding about the object.

    SLE thinks this way in battle. Analyzing the situation, they simplify it to two or three facets (frontal, flank, and/or rear), but then quickly go to a higher tier of understanding. LII grasps the problem from opposite sides, mentally rotating the situation in three dimensions around its semantic axes. ESI first draws near to a person, then moves away, seeming to probe the individual from all sides, cutting off those who could let them down. IEE detects the possible hidden motivations of a person, as if building their psychological 'hologram'.


    *THIS* is the multi-snapshot method, and what the Ni does to combine the information from the multiple snapshots.

    And this holographic cognition is a key element in our "faster-than-light" capabilities, since, as we consider a mindscape object from multiple angles, we are constantly comparing it to our database of known objects internally -- by analogy, using an auto-CAD program to rotate the view of a widget on the screen, to look at it full-on, from the side, beneath, up, down, upside-down, under various lighting : and we can compare these appearances from within our mental database to a signal from outside, enabling us to pinpoint and pounce correctly ("gotcha!") on VERY little or obscure information.

    Vortical-Synergetic Cognition

    Characteristic of a 'vortex' is its self-organizing nature, moving like a whirlwind. This manifests mentally as a rapid search for options, tests, and the subsequent screening of variants which do not yield results. It operates on basis of testing, advancing to the goal through trial and error. In a sense, it is comparable to a perpetual lab experiment in the brain.

    The first advantage of Vortical cognition—liveliness and naturalness. It seems to simulate the actual processes occurring in nature. Another advantage—faith in success and luck. Synergetics do not confuse temporary setbacks with error; they will undertake attempt after attempt until success ultimately comes to them.

    Its chief disadvantage is that the intellectual search is often blind and uneconomical. Another difficulty is its randomness and spontaneity. Synergetic intellect is a kind of chain reaction that catalyzes itself. The mechanism of positive feedback operates: if not curbed, then the concentration of effort first leads to an explosion, followed by dissipation.


    This is related to two areas of Ni. One, the list of all possibly associated topics, relevant to an initially suggested topic: often the Ni will jump hodgepodge and willy-nilly through the associated list, looking for best matches to the desired topic or information sought: and oddly enough, will *watch its own search internally* (just like watching the TV pixellation blobs getting into focus) to decide whether to slow the search near a particular item on the internal list, or to skip to another portion of that list altogether. Two, if one has heard of "s(t)imulated evolutionary" algorithms where one samples randomly over the entire configuration space in order to find a *global* extremum in the function? This Vortical search is much the same way, subject to the the internal monitoring on convergence I just mentioned.

    I hope this helps. I've REALLY divulged a LOT of trade secrets typing this.

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    [*] by analogy to the Born-Oppenheimer approximation to the solution of nuclear motion within the average field of the electrons -- whose state in turn depends on the positions and relative velocities of the nuclei).
    Last edited by grey_beard; 02-14-2014 at 07:14 AM. Reason: can you believe I skipped from 2 to 4?; add auto-CAD
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #62
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    you mentioned me so I could read your wall of text?

    I'm just kidding. I'll respond to it a year from now.

  3. #63
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    you mentioned me so I could read your wall of text?

    I'm just kidding. I'll respond to it a year from now.
    I'm an INTJ. Wall-o-Text(TM) is what I *do*.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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    I even used a spider web analogy, @grey_beard, in one of my infant writings of type.

    I was absurdly off the mark in regards to the Ni type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I do want to ask one thing, if the landscape is outside of you, why is this still introverted intuition? Or are you referring to Se in some way there?
    A few different angles on the same basic theme that I hope can help clarify this (as I understand it at least):

    -The way I see it, the introverted part of Ni refers to the specific subjectivity of the perception - subjectivity meaning, based on my specific location at any given point. The landscape is for sure outside of me. But I can perceive deeply from my specific location in the landscape.

    -Compare that with Ne, which I think gets a much broader view. Hence the difference I've experienced - interacting with a Ne -aux and Ne-dom - between the Ne "many many possibilities across a broad spectrum" versus the Ni "depth/tunneling deep into one/very few possibilities". It's like the difference between someone flying over and thus perceiving data that can be used to quickly map an entire continent in broad strokes (Ne) versus someone exploring and moving within a small particular area on the ground in great detail (Ni).

    -I think there's an overall error of culture and language in English (at the very least) that can incorrectly imply that "subjective" perception is somehow imagined by the perceiver and "objective" perception is the only kind of externally-focused perception. Even with out Se streaming info, my Ni perception really is perception of an external (to me) landscape, but what I perceive with Ni is from my specific location/subject location in a larger environment. It is thus context-specific, not universalizable, and can get to considerable depth.

    Does that adequately address it, do you think?

    Yes it seemed very two-dimensional to me too.
    I suspect that this points to one possible difference between a function in the inferior position, and a function in the dominant position. If I tried to describe or understand what Se is, on its own, from my perspective as someone with Se-inf, I wonder if there wouldn't be a similar problem of my version being "flat" and thus sort of unrecognizable in some way by a Se-dom. The only way Se makes any organic sense to me is in clear service to Ni, so I really don't think I could begin to comprehend what it is for a Se-dom as a lead function.

    It must be nice to have a four-dimensional version though...
    Ni perception feels like home to me. That's beyond nice for me. It's ... mmmm, home. Time as a coordinate is just part of how it works (and may partially explain why people think Ni sees into the future - in my case, it doesn't, it's just that time isn't linear in that landscape as I perceive it, and so the future isn't completely inaccessible the way linear time frameworks say it should be).

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Bad example. The driver could still be using Ti for his skills, just uses it for something else, not for understanding the insides of the car.
    Bad reply. You cant give any real life scenario that differentiates between Ti and Te, since the functions are mental processes and all sorts of different mental processes can manifest similarly in a real life scenario. There is a reason why i chose to use a real life scenario instead of explaining the theory or neurology behind the functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    yeah, just a little Ne-dom contribution here.

    Ne paranoia is a real thing. we see the good and the worst and everything in between in a situation. we can pick up on one perceived bad vibe and in seconds be so scared that everything's wrong and going to hell fast.

    i think the difference (from what i've perceived) is that we keep other options open too. we can see that worst case scenario and still see all of the other possible scenarios simultaneously. i feel like Ni-doms get set on one trail and follow it all the way down, while Ne-doms see that as a possibility, but see it as just that: one possible scenario. we're open to anything that might give us evidence to support, refute, or modify any of those lines of thought. and seek it out hard in times of distress.

    EDIT: i don't claim to understand Ni, so i'm open to hearing if i'm wrong about any this. just sharing my thoughts and impressions.
    I agree that Ni doms are more prone on thinking that what their intuition says is the only truth and nothing but the truth, while Ne doms are more prone on seeing it just as a possibility. But its not always the case and depends largely on the persons personal growth, how strong the intuition about the certain scenario is and about the persons complexes relating to the scenario.
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  8. #68
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I agree that Ni doms are more prone on thinking that what their intuition says is the only truth and nothing but the truth, while Ne doms are more prone on seeing it just as a possibility. But its not always the case and depends largely on the persons personal growth, how strong the intuition about the certain scenario is and about the persons complexes relating to the scenario.
    It also depends on how close the scenario is to one we've experienced before, and our experience and confidence in the use of Ni.
    The biggest flaw of Ni is when the Ni-holder *thinks* they have enough information for a positive identification, but there are key elements to the situation that they simply don't know about.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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    I got a theory.

    Okay, so Se is about concrete sensory information in your environment, right? If you use Se, you can see the ball, you can feel the terrain as you run across it. You are one with your physical environment.

    Fe is about social rules and understanding other peoples' feelings objectively, based on social cues, right? Susie is crying, her expression is saddened, therefore Susie must be feeling sad.
    Fi-users, particularly INFPs, see emotions more subjectively. Fi-users can look at a rock and try to guess what the rock would feel like if it had emotions. Unhealthy Fi-users can get caught up in their own emotions and "project" them onto others. They might think everyone else feels the way they feel. Because of this, many Fi-users make the best artists. That's also why Fi types are accused of selfishness, because they live in their own emotional world.

    That said, you'd think Si would be described as impressionism, or an acute sense of how you feel about your physical body. It's also associated with nostalgia, so certain internalized memories of images and smells have a stronger effect on Si-users.

    Then things get weird. If this is how Si works, why is Si described as "remembering details?" Yes, an SJ type would have a better recollection of the details of a room they'd been in than an SP would, but why would SJ's have a better recollection for "facts and data?" If Sensing is about physical information, why would information storage have anything to do with Si? Maybe SJ's just have a better recollection of physical details, physical because they're sensors? Wouldn't that mean attention to detail is an effect of their perception function being introverted, making them a judger?

    And Intuitives deal in ideas, right? If introverted functions pay more attention to detail and intuition focuses on ideas, Ni would have detailed maps of ideas, right? So NP types would focus on working in the general ideas in their environments, while NJ's would have detailed concept maps in their minds to rival the eidetic memories of SJ's--in other words, NJ's are the most dogmatic of all types.

    So maybe the reason that Ni is known for "Eureka!" moments is because Ni-users keep detailed accounts of ideas in their heads all the time. If Ni were found in an immature user and it was not yet developed, would it not resemble the ability to store large amounts of data and information, an ability we wrongly attribute to SJ's?

    Discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    And Intuitives deal in ideas, right?
    No. Not me at least (I'm Ni-dom). I perceive a landscape that is not culturally accepted as real the way that 5-accepted-sense perception is accepted. It's not "ideas." It's just not culturally accepted as real the way that the S perception is. When people think N is about ideas because it creates serious distortions in understanding, in reference to my own Ni perception.

    If introverted functions pay more attention to detail and intuition focuses on ideas, Ni would have detailed maps of ideas, right?
    When I compare this ^ ^ with the rich, vivid, flowing, underneath-consciousness/non-analytical experience that is my Ni perception, I can see no connection between this description and my actual lived perceptual reality as a Ni-dom.

    I think intuition is most likely a real human sense, just like S senses are. IMO, the problem comes in a cultural distortion that splits out the 5 "real" senses from other modes of human sense perception that are just as real. With this split, N perceptual reality can (semi-plausibly) look like "ideas." It's a distortion, but one that seems relatively widespread.

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