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  1. #51
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Let's do a fun example of the perception functions.

    Say there is an object covered with a blanket concealing any revealing information about the object. (I have another one of these analogies on another thread with a swimming pool).

    Se: Based on the shape of the object protruding through the blanket, I can estimate that it is probably [insert item]. (Objective awareness, looking directly at the facts, what's in front of you, and attempting to reason situations through objective sensory data)

    Si: I've seen [insert item]s that possess about the same shape before, and it looks exactly the same as the shape of the object I remember; therefore, I think it is [insert]. (Subjective awareness, remembering and realizing exactly what sensory details mean to you but not to others and using that conclusion to solve situations in the future)

    Ne: Hmmm, I could take a guess by the shape of the objects but there is simply so many things that could be under that blanket, for all we know, it could be several objects together to make it look like another object. (Objective Abstraction, seeing all of the possible angles to a situation)

    Ni: It's a(n) [insert item]; don't ask me how I know, because I can't tell you, I just know that it is [insert item] and I have no idea why I think this, it just seems like it is. (Subjective Abstraction, looking beneath the exterior without actually looking beneath it, being tuned in to patterns that seem distant from reality)

    Introverted intuition is being able to figure out abstract patterns behind reality based on instinct and interpret what those abstract patterns are in relevance to you to be utilized via a Je function.
    I cringe when I see Ni described as you put it. Here's why: It makes it seem like an Ni dom will never be able to understand their insights. Ever. It's like their minds are magical black boxes that are meerly trusted to work and that's how it is. This was espically an issue for me, and can be for others, but I can't relate to it.

    The way it works usually for me, is I will usually know something instantly, it will come to me and in that moment, I couldn't explain to you how I know. However, given time I can retroactively determine (usually) what things around me, or from in my mind that caused that initial insight to come to me. It's kind of a backwards process, but it somehow works out. I have thoughts, and then have to retroactively determine what thoughts were. I actually rather hate that I think that way sometimes as I fear it can make me come across as a charlatan. As such, I have put a lot of effort into being able to tease apart the nebulous abstracts that go through my head. It's a never ending process for me. I have gotten good enough that sometimes I can get them to run in parallel. For as amazing as Ni can be, it can also go horribly horribly wrong, in particular if it's trusted too implicitly. Naturally, I seek to avoid that. It thus makes me seem more Si-like because I train myself to be that way. For these reasons, if I didn't have a background on MBTI, I'd guess I am either Si or Se based off this.

    Ultimately, I think people may have combinations of these, or this is how it initially starts.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  2. #52
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I cringe when I see Ni described as you put it. Here's why: It makes it seem like an Ni dom will never be able to understand their insights. Ever. It's like their minds are magical black boxes that are meerly trusted to work and that's how it is. This was espically an issue for me, and can be for others, but I can't relate to it.

    The way it works usually for me, is I will usually know something instantly, it will come to me and in that moment, I couldn't explain to you how I know. However, given time I can retroactively determine (usually) what things around me, or from in my mind that caused that initial insight to come to me. It's kind of a backwards process, but it somehow works out. I have thoughts, and then have to retroactively determine what thoughts were. I actually rather hate that I think that way sometimes as I fear it can make me come across as a charlatan. As such, I have put a lot of effort into being able to tease apart the nebulous abstracts that go through my head. It's a never ending process for me. I have gotten good enough that sometimes I can get them to run in parallel. For as amazing as Ni can be, it can also go horribly horribly wrong, in particular if it's trusted too implicitly. Naturally, I seek to avoid that. It thus makes me seem more Si-like because I train myself to be that way. For these reasons, if I didn't have a background on MBTI, I'd guess I am either Si or Se based off this.

    Ultimately, I think people may have combinations of these, or this is how it initially starts.
    That's because we subjectively understand patterns in our own mind, so we can't express how we know things to others inquiring and looking for cohesive information and thus we are forced to say "I can't explain how" simply because our perception of events is entirely idiosyncratic.

    I guess one thing that makes Pi functions so mysterious is due to to the fact they use a sort of pseudo-inductive logic when interpreting events. Specific -> General, unlike and mysterious to the Pe General -> Specific.

  3. #53
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    That's because we subjectively understand patterns in our own mind, so we can't express how we know things to others inquiring and looking for cohesive information and thus we are forced to say "I can't explain how" simply because our perception of events is entirely idiosyncratic.

    I guess one thing that makes Pi functions so mysterious is due to to the fact they use a sort of pseudo-inductive logic when interpreting events. Specific -> General, unlike and mysterious to the Pe General -> Specific.
    Yes you are correct. It's also why P types often feel so confused at how Pi function can possibly work, because specific to general just seems completely backwards from an objective point of view. It shouldn't even work.

    What I am saying though, is that at least for Ni, it's not impossible for us to explain how, even if it isn't perfect. It's often written as if it isn't possible.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  4. #54
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    A simple word to describe Ni is essence. Ni its convergent, it isn't distracted by anything in it way, its like a F22 that has only one purpose, solely one cause: to meet the goal, to simplify everything, to reveal what is hidden, to understand the soil, the ground, to penetrate it, and get to the core concept of everything, whether that would be abstract aplied to abstract, or abstract aplied to concret.

    The interesting thing is that in order for Ni to understand, Ni would freeze literarely the big picture of what can be comprehended, at huge dimensions and only after doing this, Ni would start to make its way into "deep dark", by simplifying everything, until the big picture is reduced to its essence, a tiny and precious insight, like a pearl found in deep waters.

    I also think Ni users have a natural understanding of what is "appearence" over "essence", or what is "non-fundamental/non/essential" over what is "fundamental/essential" atmost in a instant. Ni simply knows what is important and what is not, what is fundamental and what is not, what is the core and what the core isn't, and all these from a subjective and abstract point of refference.

    And the subjectivity of Ni lies not in its "subjective" ( the insights aims to be objective actually, and most of the times, if verified by sound logic, it is truly objective) reliability, but rather in the subbjective point of reference at one particular point in the big picture. For example, in this case, which is what is Ni about, Ni would begin analysing the big picture from rather a subjective perspective in the world of abstracts, to form a concrete detail of the fundamental. So, it begins to form the big picture and to penetrate from this very particular perspective and issue, which is the essence of Ni.

  5. #55
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    Hahah funny example! I know when I first moved into an apartment it didn't sink into my head for a while that it's a good idea to wash up the dishes in time. After enough exposure to mold, washing all that up, I decided I didn't really want to mess with that. That worked well as a sort of conditioning and I got more diligent about washing them up in time. Took a while to get this response conditioned though as I easily just give no two fucks about mess by default. What function is that then? Hahahah



    No, I would say they have just the right amount of paranoia - less is usually better than more, in this case. ;p
    Well dishes probably depends on other factors...

    But if I was to guess its probably dominant Pe.

    Not sure though. Ha ha not doing the dishes in a timely fashion, or not wanting/ caring to do them is different too.

    Like I don't want to go to bed with dishes dirty in the sink, but sometimes I do.

    Others would not be thinking about dishes before they go to bed lol.. I think its an individual thing.

    I once knew a ISFP that would refuse to go to bed with even one dish in the sink. The rest of the house was always a mess...but not those dishes. It's funny what we hold on to lol.

    Learning from experience is usually related to sensing especially if its a better way to do something. Extraverted sensors like to tell stories. And will recall stories of what worked and didn't. Trial and error is sometimes their primary mode.

    So it could have been your upbringing, not just solely personality type.

    On the paranoia bit...

    Eh I dunno. I think I would replace the word paranoia with care. Seems like someone With Se will wash the mold....but don't they care what the mold could do while they're touching or breathing it.

    I just throw shit with mold on it out. Lol

    But my ex ISFP used to wash that shit. Hell no.

    actually this is probably me being an sp Dom... hmmm

    Anyways my ISFJ friend would prolly throw it out too.

    And my ESFP dad would have called me a scared -y cat lmao.

    So in regards to the relationships and paranoia....

    Ni can see where things are going.

    Se is more like letting things come to them.

    Its just 2 different sides. I know one's not better than the other, but in Se's way of not being proactive about where the relationship is going.. it makes it look like they don't care. That's what I meant.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  6. #56
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Yes you are correct. It's also why P types often feel so confused at how Pi function can possibly work, because specific to general just seems completely backwards from an objective point of view. It shouldn't even work.

    What I am saying though, is that at least for Ni, it's not impossible for us to explain how, even if it isn't perfect. It's often written as if it isn't possible.
    It isn't impossible, but it's usually hard to objectify the information to others and nearly impossible (exaggeration) to be able to view the subjective understanding from a different perspective and explain it differently, for that is the cause of the infamous attempt to work backwards with the information and consequently not be able to understand it from the backwards perspective let alone relate it to others.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    I don't really see a point.
    The point seemed to be that it may not be Ni that you experience but some other factor.

    ps: Not questioning your type, just the interpretation of that specific experience

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    The point seemed to be that it may not be Ni that you experience but some other factor.
    I mean the point, for me.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Well dishes probably depends on other factors...

    (...)

    Its just 2 different sides. I know one's not better than the other, but in Se's way of not being proactive about where the relationship is going.. it makes it look like they don't care. That's what I meant.
    Lol I totally get what you mean. I like your analysis, makes sense. As for not caring, well it's really about not caring in that one given moment. I'm saying that in general, not sure what relationship you were referring to. Ohh and I relate to your ESFP dad

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    I mean the point, for me.
    That is, you disagree with that other interpretation?

    (Btw did you see the "ps" I added afterwards, to my previous post)

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