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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I don't remember the exact sources I got it from, but it is ingrained in my mind in such a way that it has to be external information.
    I would be wary of relying on such reasoning..... plus, assuming it's external information, what source was it from?


    The connection is that Precision is precisely (lol) how deductive logic functions. It starts out with a general principle, applies it, and gets a specific conclusion. Ti does near the same thing, it starts out with general information and gets a specific conclusion.
    Well there was a post below that explains how precision does not have anything to do with deductive logic. That saved me the work of explaining it :P

    And actually, if you read the links you yourself gave me, none of them talks about Ti starting out with general information.


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I'm not offended, seriously, just really bored by where you wanted to take it. Sometimes stuff just bores me - just like on the other side, sometimes stuff truly fascinates me. (If it helps any, I've even been occasionally known to stop mid-sentence during a conversation and say, "Okay, now I'm just boring myself.")
    No, I call bullshit on this. Based on your wording of the previous post, you were more than just "bored". You were being extremely condescending. Assuming and clearly saying out loud that faults must lie with me in everything about the discussion. Assuming and stating all sorts of BS about me. You didn't even consider that maybe you misunderstood me. You didn't ever realize that I was honestly curious about your thoughts on those matters. You also have no idea about my thoughts in general but instead of inquiring, you just made up all that crap.

    And I'm really not happy that because of all that you decided not to talk about your own thoughts and instead just started BS'ing around like that. You also pigeonholed me by assuming that it would be like banging your head into the wall if you continued talking to me. Well, a discussion is always the product of at least TWO parties. So if this discussion has led nowhere, at least 50% of that is due to you, not me.


    But that isn't my goal. I can see why you'd think it was, given what I described - but my actual goal is for me to trust my own perception more, not try to convince others. My favorite thing about this thread is the increased clarity I've gotten from the dialogue with another Ni-dom about Ni perception.
    OK, cool then, I thought it was a problem for you if others didn't understand your thoughts.


    Yeah, this is the problem with me and emoticons. What I meant in using that head-bang-wall one is that it seemed to me that if I continued to engage with you in the terms you were setting out, it would be, for me, like banging my head against a wall. And I didn't/don't want to do that. I really shouldn't use emoticons to try to communicate (except for the one with the pink handcuffs ... because really, that one is so completely self-explanatory that no one could possibly misinterpret it in any way).
    Blahblahblahblah. I wasn't setting out any irreversible "terms", that's a figment of your imagination.


    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I would describe Ni more like a feeling or a teleportation thought. It's just suddenly there like I see something that suddenly triggers an Ni spark of insight. It's more reactionary. Ti is just my default err I kind of find it hard to describe it. I guess Ti is just more linear and factual and concrete like someone reading a book out loud.

    ENTJ Ni is more sophisticated. They can absorb information subconsciously without really needing to do anything.
    I see. Hmmh, I'd like to hear about ExNJ's

    Mine's (Ni) got different manifestations I think. One version readily aligns with logical requirements that I have and another version doesn't.

    I sometimes get eureka moments, triggered by whatever, just like you describe. However I always need to have the data that supports it or I will not rely on it. I just don't care to rely on it without something concrete supporting it.

    I do relate to the "absorbing information" stuff though I'm not quite sure if it happens subconsciously. It's like, I read whatever information, I don't do anything with it at that point, but later it might start to make sense, either through logical reasoning or some insight might come up. Well if an insight comes up it should be logical too in some way and this usually isn't a problem. The only exception from that is certain psychological insights that I get at times. I have them infrequently but they always have a lot of impact, I've had them as a kid as well. Those are not logical and have never been and afraid they never will be But that sort of insight still makes sense, just not in a logical way

    The Ti thing for me or whatever I call "Ti" at this point, it isn't linear much, instead I prefer it to be pretty holistic just like Lenore describes it. The best way for me to find the logic in something and then to use it in practice, is through my own experience, preferably concrete experience. I'm rather useless with it if I try to build the logic of something by just dealing with theory. I mean I can do it but it's just not the same. It's just meh... I will not feel like it's absorbed so deeply and not as ready for effortless use in practice.

    You say your Ti is pretty linear and factual and concrete, sounds like it's fully conscious for you or something, otoh my "Ti stuff" is often just stuff that I don't even think about, I just "have" it and then if a situation calls for it, I will start using it effortlessly. Why I think it's Ti and not Ni, well, several reasons. A logical structure always belongs to this stuff. If I need to put this stuff into words for some reason - making it more conscious as well - I will then try to precisely flesh all of it out, I get really sensitive about noticing any seeming contradiction and fixing them. That actually happens also when I'm e.g. reading someone else's stuff. It's an automatic process really, I remember about a decade ago it wasn't, it wasn't so subconsciously automatic and even earlier it wasn't anywhere at all. One day I just noticed it appeared. It was fully conscious then, now it's less so because I got used to it. I developed all this around age 18-20. Before that age all the logic I had I just used for mathematics mainly. It was great use of logic and done in the same fashion as described above but I just didn't use it for much else.

    It's somewhat confusing though because I know the development of wider application of this stuff originally started by me focusing on something that can be called textbook Ni. I don't think that makes any sense, sorry, it doesn't to me either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    FWIW, deep concern with precision in areas such as word usage can also play a role in the detailed intensive work of inductive logic processes. For example, developing truly useful and data-grounded categories from raw complex qualitative data requires a real and sustained concern with getting as much precision as possible in the development and description of categories - precision helps with clarity (the precision doesn't necessarily have to be in the in-process category names, but rather in the ways those categories are described and understood in the analysis). I say this from my experience with formal academic and other professional inductive processes such as developing grounded theory using carefully documented qualitative data coding, category development etc etc. While my real (and mostly hidden to others) internal process is likely Ni-shaped, the painstaking data-detailed formally inductive data coding and analysis processes I've had to go through in the professional and academic worlds seem associated with Ti-tert in me. Exhausting for me, but formally and demonstrably inductive. And Ni "psuedo-inductive" just doesn't cut it in those formal environments.
    That was a good description as to why Ti can be inductive logic and about precision at the same time. That stuff you describe is quite compatible with the Ti definitions.


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    This came up in a dialogue with a friend...Ni conclusions feels like this to me...I am at point A (the question/problem) initially and Ni makes a (relatively quick) conclusion and jumps to point B (conclusion) which feels right...But I do not know why B feels right at that moment so cannot explain either to myself or others why it feels right...So Ti starts backtracking the solution route all the way to A, after which I can tell myself and others why it feels right (or wrong)...So Ni acts like teleporting all the way from A to B whereas Ti acts like going that path on foot back from B to A...

    I've always imagined it was Ti-tert responsible for this delayed process (to flesh out, backtrack the route)...And I've associated it with cause and effect style reasoning...And I really need to force myself to bring my conclusion from the depths of Ni domain, perhaps that's why it may be consuming more energy...?
    You're confusing me meheheh :P

    What I mean is, I often experience the "teleporting" thing but it always seems logical to me and I have no problem fleshing out the logic. It's "wider" though than just "cause and effect". Holistic just like what Lenore says about Ti

    So it's either that it isn't just Ni that can give conclusions so fast or that I have more Ni than Ti, but I don't think so. That Lenore Ti description really fits me so well, anyway. Whereas, taking the Ni descriptions that I've seen so far, I don't see myself in them so much.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Subject was the car and two people related to the subject in different ways that go hand in hand with Ti and Te relate to same subject in general. And yes its possible for an Te user to be a car mechanic, but i didnt write any more for my example than i did, so take it as it is and not try to see some hidden possibilities in some potential real life people. Those people in my example arent real, they only exist within the borders of what i wrote
    I wasn't complicating it this much, I simply said that the example could be better...


    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    no can do my Ni says motorcycles are dangerous
    What kind of ISTP are you?!

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I see. Hmmh, I'd like to hear about ExNJ's

    Mine's (Ni) got different manifestations I think. One version readily aligns with logical requirements that I have and another version doesn't.

    I sometimes get eureka moments, triggered by whatever, just like you describe. However I always need to have the data that supports it or I will not rely on it. I just don't care to rely on it without something concrete supporting it.

    I do relate to the "absorbing information" stuff though I'm not quite sure if it happens subconsciously. It's like, I read whatever information, I don't do anything with it at that point, but later it might start to make sense, either through logical reasoning or some insight might come up. Well if an insight comes up it should be logical too in some way and this usually isn't a problem. The only exception from that is certain psychological insights that I get at times. I have them infrequently but they always have a lot of impact, I've had them as a kid as well. Those are not logical and have never been and afraid they never will be But that sort of insight still makes sense, just not in a logical way

    The Ti thing for me or whatever I call "Ti" at this point, it isn't linear much, instead I prefer it to be pretty holistic just like Lenore describes it. The best way for me to find the logic in something and then to use it in practice, is through my own experience, preferably concrete experience. I'm rather useless with it if I try to build the logic of something by just dealing with theory. I mean I can do it but it's just not the same. It's just meh... I will not feel like it's absorbed so deeply and not as ready for effortless use in practice.

    You say your Ti is pretty linear and factual and concrete, sounds like it's fully conscious for you or something, otoh my "Ti stuff" is often just stuff that I don't even think about, I just "have" it and then if a situation calls for it, I will start using it effortlessly. Why I think it's Ti and not Ni, well, several reasons. A logical structure always belongs to this stuff. If I need to put this stuff into words for some reason - making it more conscious as well - I will then try to precisely flesh all of it out, I get really sensitive about noticing any seeming contradiction and fixing them. That actually happens also when I'm e.g. reading someone else's stuff. It's an automatic process really, I remember about a decade ago it wasn't, it wasn't so subconsciously automatic and even earlier it wasn't anywhere at all. One day I just noticed it appeared. It was fully conscious then, now it's less so because I got used to it. I developed all this around age 18-20. Before that age all the logic I had I just used for mathematics mainly. It was great use of logic and done in the same fashion as described above but I just didn't use it for much else.

    It's somewhat confusing though because I know the development of wider application of this stuff originally started by me focusing on something that can be called textbook Ni. I don't think that makes any sense, sorry, it doesn't to me either.
    I feel like I'm drowning in your thought process. Whenever I read something my Ti always picks out the most relevant things and I'm not sure if any of that is relevant. Inside your brain must be a jungle. I don't know much more about ENTJ Ni besides the obvious stuff.

    I sometimes get eureka moments, triggered by whatever, just like you describe. However I always need to have the data that supports it or I will not rely on it. I just don't care to rely on it without something concrete supporting it.
    Sounds pretty ENTJ to me. My Ni insights are pretty accurate I guess cause they are matched up with Ti and the conclusion jumps it makes aren't very big. I don't really think to not trust them most of the time.

    You say your Ti is pretty linear and factual and concrete, sounds like it's fully conscious for you or something
    When I'm using Ti I'm not really aware I am. I'm inside my head thinking about stuff cut off from the world. If you ask me to describe what I was just doing I'm like ummm. It's like following a river stream. Using Ti detaches you from your senses making you look autistic.

    The Ti thing for me or whatever I call "Ti" at this point, it isn't linear much, instead I prefer it to be pretty holistic just like Lenore describes it.
    Did you just mention socionics to me in a round about way? I can't take you seriously now don't ever talk to me about socionics. Conversation over.

  3. #113
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    @valaki,


  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I feel like I'm drowning in your thought process. Whenever I read something my Ti always picks out the most relevant things and I'm not sure if any of that is relevant. Inside your brain must be a jungle. I don't know much more about ENTJ Ni besides the obvious stuff.
    No, you can't really see my internal thought processes from a forum post. I think all the stuff I posted is relevant in terms of giving a detailed description about how I relate to Ti and/or Ni, which was my goal.

    Too bad about not much more on ENTJ, thanks anyway. I hope someone else can chime in.


    Sounds pretty ENTJ to me. My Ni insights are pretty accurate I guess cause they are matched up with Ti and the conclusion jumps it makes aren't very big. I don't really think to not trust them most of the time.
    Yes, mine are usually good too. Do you mean the requirement for data supporting the insight is Te-ish / ENTJ-ish?


    When I'm using Ti I'm not really aware I am. I'm inside my head thinking about stuff cut off from the world. If you ask me to describe what I was just doing I'm like ummm. It's like following a river stream. Using Ti detaches you from your senses making you look autistic.
    Lol I see.


    Did you just mention socionics to me in a round about way? I can't take you seriously now don't ever talk to me about socionics. Conversation over.
    Nope, Lenore Thomson is an MBTI author, not socionics. Or why did you think this was socionics?

    See Lenore wiki here (still dead for some reason so I linked from archive.org) https://web.archive.org/web/20121117...nore-exegesis/ (Ti and the other functions are under "the function attitudes") This is her own version of MBTI sort of, but it's still MBTI related and not socionics.

    Btw is your problem with socionics that it's more complex than MBTI or what?

  5. #115
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    @Werebudgie


  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by miauwington View Post
    I agree with this except for deciding on what you called "unconscious biases". I'm pretty sure my type for instance has very little unconscious biases, generally being one of the most self-conscious types of all. The biases we have are mostly known to our own conscious mind.
    I wanted to reply to this earlier; You're terribly wrong in assuming that a type has fewer unconscious biases than another type. This isn't type dependent.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No, you can't really see my internal thought processes from a forum post. I think all the stuff I posted is relevant in terms of giving a detailed description about how I relate to Ti and/or Ni, which was my goal.

    Too bad about not much more on ENTJ, thanks anyway. I hope someone else can chime in.




    Yes, mine are usually good too. Do you mean the requirement for data supporting the insight is Te-ish / ENTJ-ish?




    Lol I see.




    Nope, Lenore Thomson is an MBTI author, not socionics. Or why did you think this was socionics?

    See Lenore wiki here (still dead for some reason so I linked from archive.org) https://web.archive.org/web/20121117...nore-exegesis/ (Ti and the other functions are under "the function attitudes") This is her own version of MBTI sort of, but it's still MBTI related and not socionics.

    Btw is your problem with socionics that it's more complex than MBTI or what?
    Now that I think about it ENFJ could also fit for you. It would explain all your enthusiasm and why you would think you are istp (ENFJ shadow type is ISTP). They are ambitious like ENTJs.

    Yes, mine are usually good too. Do you mean the requirement for data supporting the insight is Te-ish / ENTJ-ish?
    Because your Ni jumps are so big that you are not sure if they are true or not. That's a problem intuitives have.

    Nope, Lenore Thomson is an MBTI author, not socionics. Or why did you think this was socionics?

    See Lenore wiki here (still dead for some reason so I linked from archive.org) https://web.archive.org/web/20121117...nore-exegesis/ (Ti and the other functions are under "the function attitudes") This is her own version of MBTI sort of, but it's still MBTI related and not socionics.

    Btw is your problem with socionics that it's more complex than MBTI or what?
    Well lenore thomson sounds like an idiot. I'm more inclined to trust first hand sources rather than something I read that's the Se way. You have a real Ti user standing right here and you are going to trust a book about a Ti user? When people do that they usually have Te/Si. There is nothing hollistic about Ti that is Ni.

    My problem is that ISTP is split up into two different types in socionics so there is no real ISTP type in socoinics. How can you have a system with no ISTP? The whole thing is just retarded. There is no point to socionics it's like a meth addict wrote it. Now no more socoinics talk it makes my blood boil.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Now that I think about it ENFJ could also fit for you. It would explain all your enthusiasm and why you would think you are istp (ENFJ shadow type is ISTP). They are ambitious like ENTJs.
    Well I'm going to put that type in the list of types in my profile


    Because your Ni jumps are so big that you are not sure if they are true or not. That's a problem intuitives have.
    Uhh maybe. I'll try to think of some examples and then it could be compared with other people's stuff here and see if they're big or not.


    Well lenore thomson sounds like an idiot. I'm more inclined to trust first hand sources rather than something I read that's the Se way. You have a real Ti user standing right here and you are going to trust a book about a Ti user? When people do that they usually have Te/Si. There is nothing hollistic about Ti that is Ni.
    It's not that I trust a book by whoever. It's that I found it fascinating, how the description nailed a big part of my thinking. It's another issue altogether how that "thing" can be categorized. Ti, Ni, or whatever.


    My problem is that ISTP is split up into two different types in socionics so there is no real ISTP type in socoinics. How can you have a system with no ISTP? The whole thing is just retarded. There is no point to socionics it's like a meth addict wrote it. Now no more socoinics talk it makes my blood boil.
    Lol you're funny and I mean it

    Anyway yeah it's a different system. ISTP isn't the only MBTI type that doesn't have a direct equivalent in socionics. That system is definitely not going to match up with MBTI in a simple linear way. Some people find that MBTI describes them better and some find the socionics type descriptions better or enneagram or whatnot. That's inevitable if none of the systems cover everything perfectly.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well I'm going to put that type in the list of types in my profile
    Yep I would say 200% chance of ENFJ. You make a lot more sense now. Should look into it and since you are sx/sp you won't be the typical social ENFJ like it says in the descriptions.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Yep I would say 200% chance of ENFJ. You make a lot more sense now. Should look into it and since you are sx/sp you won't be the typical social ENFJ like it says in the descriptions.
    Lol well thanks, I will be checking it out.

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