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  1. #101
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    You clearly misunderstood my intentions or something or you wouldn't have got so offended. I was honestly curious as to how you see these things, that is, why you think it's just a cultural thing etc etc.
    I'm not offended, seriously, just really bored by where you wanted to take it. Sometimes stuff just bores me - just like on the other side, sometimes stuff truly fascinates me. (If it helps any, I've even been occasionally known to stop mid-sentence during a conversation and say, "Okay, now I'm just boring myself.")

    My intention with that suggestion was helpful; suggesting a way that will help you get your Ni perceptions more easily accepted by others.
    But that isn't my goal. I can see why you'd think it was, given what I described - but my actual goal is for me to trust my own perception more, not try to convince others. My favorite thing about this thread is the increased clarity I've gotten from the dialogue with another Ni-dom about Ni perception.

    You didn't talk about what Ni-Se integration meant to you, in my interpretation what I suggested would exactly be that, integrating Se with Ni.
    Well, that is in fact a great thing for me to do, and something I have been doing. But not to convince others of anything.

    Also my suggestion comes from my own experience, I can sometimes have hunches but I do always try to clarify them with data first before relying on them. So, I assume it's helpful when explaining it to others as well.
    In my case, I've wasted a great deal of energy in my life doing the external data route despite evidence over and over that my organic perception was accurate to start with. It has been routine practice for me to put off relying on Ni and Ni-se information until I take that long route and use all that energy. It's the long way around and is not the best way for me to move at this stage in my life. I've paid my dues after decades of taking the long way around, and at this point am moving away from that and toward a deeper instinctive trust in my actual perception. That's just me. If others do it some other way, that's them.

    Well it's not my problem if your head now hurts because you decided to get angry and self-destructive instead of first attempting to clarify what I really meant.
    Yeah, this is the problem with me and emoticons. What I meant in using that head-bang-wall one is that it seemed to me that if I continued to engage with you in the terms you were setting out, it would be, for me, like banging my head against a wall. And I didn't/don't want to do that. I really shouldn't use emoticons to try to communicate (except for the one with the pink handcuffs ... because really, that one is so completely self-explanatory that no one could possibly misinterpret it in any way).

    Apologies all around for all the tangents I'm getting into here. Except of course the pink handcuffs part - as I see it, pink handcuffs are never truly a tangent in any discussion.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Thanks for the description. So can you sum it up as to how do you differentiate between Ni and Ti? This does seem like they are really intertwined for you.
    I would describe Ni more like a feeling or a teleportation thought. It's just suddenly there like I see something that suddenly triggers an Ni spark of insight. It's more reactionary. Ti is just my default err I kind of find it hard to describe it. I guess Ti is just more linear and factual and concrete like someone reading a book out loud.

    ENTJ Ni is more sophisticated. They can absorb information subconsciously without really needing to do anything.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I don't remember the exact sources I got it from, but it is ingrained in my mind in such a way that it has to be external information.

    The connection is that Precision is precisely (lol) how deductive logic functions. It starts out with a general principle, applies it, and gets a specific conclusion. Ti does near the same thing, it starts out with general information and gets a specific conclusion.
    FWIW, deep concern with precision in areas such as word usage can also play a role in the detailed intensive work of inductive logic processes. For example, developing truly useful and data-grounded categories from raw complex qualitative data requires a real and sustained concern with getting as much precision as possible in the development and description of categories - precision helps with clarity (the precision doesn't necessarily have to be in the in-process category names, but rather in the ways those categories are described and understood in the analysis). I say this from my experience with formal academic and other professional inductive processes such as developing grounded theory using carefully documented qualitative data coding, category development etc etc. While my real (and mostly hidden to others) internal process is likely Ni-shaped, the painstaking data-detailed formally inductive data coding and analysis processes I've had to go through in the professional and academic worlds seem associated with Ti-tert in me. Exhausting for me, but formally and demonstrably inductive. And Ni "psuedo-inductive" just doesn't cut it in those formal environments.

  4. #104
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    (I have been reduced to using emoticons instead of words. What has become of me?)
    You've got tired?

    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I would describe Ni more like a feeling or a teleportation thought. It's just suddenly there like I see something that suddenly triggers an Ni spark of insight. It's more reactionary. Ti is just my default err I kind of find it hard to describe it. I guess Ti is just more linear and factual and concrete like someone reading a book out loud.

    ENTJ Ni is more sophisticated. They can absorb information subconsciously without really needing to do anything.
    This feels like self-promotion but:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    My assumption is that Ni in Ni-doms is perceiving/collecting/recording/recalling patterns (i.e. the basic essence/barebone/framework of a given set of recurring occurances) from the external world either thru Fe (INFJ) or Te (INTJ)...So INFJs' Ni is more attuned to the external data layer related with Fe and INTJs' with Te...These patterns accumulate over time to something like an internal framework or a wireframe 3D model/prototype of the external world (sometimes we Ni-doms may refer to as an internal landscape), and Ni-doms I believe sub-consciously use that model to evaluate any further incoming information whether it fits with the internal model, what kind of an effect an external occurance may have on the internal model, how the internal model may be optimized and applied to the external world etc...

    This process is a sub-conscious one...Ni-dom applies an input (a question, any issue etc...) to the internal model and the model processes it and gives a result...The process inside the model (cause and effect analysis) is not immediately visible to the Ni-dom...It becomes more consciously perceived by the Ni-dom when Ni-dom applies T function to it I guess...That is Ti-tertiary in INFJs and Te-auxiliary in INTJs...

    Perhaps T function regardless of external or internal direction may be apt at both inductive and deductive logic, both of which are encompassed by causal reasoning (I keep miswriting this as casual)? The direction may be signifying to what the function is applied perhaps? Ti cross checks reasoning against the internal(ized) framework/model of (which is dependent on) the person and Te cross checks reasoning against the external framework (which is observable outside [independent] of the person)...

    So is Ti processes thru (or on) personal filter/perception (subjective) whereas Te processes impersonally (objective)...Does this definition fit the belowgiven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Or in different wording:

    Te: Assesses measureable/quantifiable/quantitative/tangible data thru impersonal filter (a filter which is more concerned with what "is" correct)
    Ti: Assesses measureable/quantifiable/quantitative/tangible data thru personel filter (a filter which is more concerned with what "feels" correct)
    Fe: Assesses non-quantifiable/qualitative/intangible data thru impersonal filter
    Fi: Assesses non-quantifiable/qualitative/intangible data thru personal filter

    --------

    About deductive and inductive thing...

    Ni-dom seems to use the internal framework/model/database built on collected patterns to recognize external issues/instances...The internal pattern may be used to extrapolate (fill in the gaps of) a currently unavailable part of the said external issue, which may look like going from incomplete data to a complete model...from the specific to the general...? So this looks like inductive reasoning...?

    "Inductive reasoning is the opposite of deductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning makes broad generalizations from specific observations."

    The said internal Ni-dom model may also be used to identify/guess/interpolate a specific part/component of the external model when a matching pattern is identified within the internal model...which may look like deductive reasoning?

    "Deductive reasoning is a basic form of valid reasoning. Deductive reasoning, or deduction, starts out with a general statement, or hypothesis, and examines the possibilities to reach a specific, logical conclusion."

    However, I guess Ni-dom doesn't have anything to do with reasoning itself...it just perceives and allows the Ni-dom person to perceive itself (the model)...It doesn't reason...The reasoning part I guess requires the use of T function to be able to see the gears and levers inside the internal Ni-framework...It requires T function for Ni-doms to be able to go from node to node and follow a trail within the internal (wireframe?) model...

    So Ti/Te can use both inductive and deductive reasoning and aren't inherently either...? So T generally deals with overall reasoning?

    Eta: Ni-dom is a built-in algorithm the components of which are not visible to the conscious self, and T is like googles that enable the conscious self of the Ni-dom person to see/trail within the algorithm?

    Eta 2: Ni-dom framework also reminds of a skeleton key somehow...?
    Last edited by yeghor; 02-16-2014 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Blue added

  5. #105
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    OK, but it would have been a better example if contrasting Ti and Te on the same subject material.
    Subject was the car and two people related to the subject in different ways that go hand in hand with Ti and Te relate to same subject in general. And yes its possible for an Te user to be a car mechanic, but i didnt write any more for my example than i did, so take it as it is and not try to see some hidden possibilities in some potential real life people. Those people in my example arent real, they only exist within the borders of what i wrote
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post

    Its seeing the whole picture at all times. Both sides of the same coin. When someone says they are "Strong Willed" that also implies that they are "Stubbornly narrow sighted." If someone says they are "very shy" it also means they are "good at keeping secrets." If someone says they are a psychopath, another may argue they are "willing to do what others are not."

    For every bad there is somehow a good. A yin and a yang.

    And when you use Ni, you see all of existence in your mind. Civilizations flowing, coming and going, mountains forming and crumbling, cultures forming and spreading... and in the end the Ni dom (INTJ INFJ) is left feeling small, wondering how its possible to do anything good in such a huge world. (many INFJ's type as enneagram 4 scared of being insignificant, and many INTJs type as 3 or 5, scared of being worthless or inadequate.)

    When I use my Ni I see everyone around me as equal to me, but I also see myself as having some kind of a gift. The ISTJ who acts like a badass and tells everyone how tough she is, does so because she feels no one respects her. So I will give her this respect and as a result she will give me something in return, perhaps she will get along with me or protect me or help me in the future. The ENTJ asks a lot of questions and constantly seeks knowledge, may secretly feel stupid because he doesn't actually understand himself, and believes understanding the world will bring about understanding of himself.

    With this seeing 2 sides of every coin, Ni doms also tend to be indecisive, as all "truths" are equivalent. Their indecision comes in many forms, either in the moment decision making (INFJ), Being able to decide if one is good or evil (ENFJ's are too ethically objective with Fe dominance), being unable to choose one morality over the other (ENTJ's are too objective with Te dominance), and being unable to take action due to fear of equal and opposite forces of the universe (INTJ). Many Ni users (or intuitives for that matter) may feel depressed because... What's the point?

    Thoughts?
    I agree with this! Especially the bolded. Seeing all of existence together makes me happy though; it makes me thinik everything is in harmony and balance no matter what happens, and I don't have to do anything. Every outcome is equally good because everything just goes in cycles, and int he human world it leads to greater consciousness. So I don't wonder about not trying, but I do sometimes get a little depressed that the Earth is polluted and that's the world I will be bringing my future kids into. Also good insights about NJ's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It does take me some time to process. There are two interconnected reasons for this.

    First, Ni perception often emerges in ways initially inaccessible to the conscious mind, including visual images, metaphors, visceral gut feeling, stuff like that. So the information is there, but my conscious mind often doesn't comprehend what it is and thus how it could affect my movement. Second, Ni layers of reality are invisible in the cultural system in which I live, so I have learned to second-guess my own Ni perceptions as a default.

    (on reflection: of course, if you're a judging-dom ... I suppose at a completely rudimentary level, a perceiving-dom might appear to deviate from the judging-dom mode by accepting all truths as equivalent. But IMO that kind of description would use a judging-dom framework to describe a perceiving-dom perception and thus would be skewed away from the actual lived experience of a perceiving-dom.)
    I agree with this too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I often get the impression that Ne-doms are always seeing 'the light', while SeNi users almost seem like they're being held back by their own neuroses and obsessions, especially if they're in some sort of Ni-Ji/Ji-Ni loop.
    I was going to go "yes!" to the first part of that; Ne is yang and Ni is yin, like the nighttime. Ni sees the part of the sphere of reality which is in shadow, like the new moon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    What do you mean here? You mean ENPs are always coming to multiple realizations about whatever they're thinking about, and SPs and NJs are trying to bring everything they're seeing into one big collective image/idea?
    I do anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I think that the Ni subjectivity within a larger landscape may sensitize our perception to the importance of specific location in affecting perception (did that make sense at all outside my head? It's clear to me but an odd sentence).
    It makes sense to me.


    Edit: left off reading the thread at page 7, so I may have more comments

  7. #107
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Ni does look at the big picture and tries to see behind the immediate reality, but that big picture isnt the whole picture as it has been abstracted, its just a guess based on what the unconscious biases see as being relevant.
    I agree with this except for deciding on what you called "unconscious biases". I'm pretty sure my type for instance has very little unconscious biases, generally being one of the most self-conscious types of all. The biases we have are mostly known to our own conscious mind.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    This feels like self-promotion but:
    How is this self promotion like I care what you guys think of me. If you have a problem with me then just say it.

  9. #109
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    How is this self promotion like I care what you guys think of me. If you have a problem with me then just say it.
    I was referring to myself, you bastard

    Here's a complimentary motorcycle for you...

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I was referring to myself, you bastard

    Here's a complimentary motorcycle for you...
    no can do my Ni says motorcycles are dangerous

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