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  1. #41
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    FWIW, that's not how Ni with Fe-aux actually works a lot of the time in me. In me, Fe-aux generally flows in the other direction - meaning, it initially assigns a high default legitimacy to external values and judgements. So Ni or Ni-Se gets that quick impression/gut sense/visceral information you may be referring to, but Fe-aux undermines that as a valid source of information. Fe-aux would orient me to downplay that Ni or Ni-Se information in favor of what people claim is going on, if there is a difference (and there quite often is). In order to trust Ni, I have to go against that Fe-aux push. This means that in order to act on that visceral Ni information, I can't judge at all if I am to act quickly. If I am to act quickly on the information, all I can do is perceive. If I try to judge - that is, use an actual judging function - I'm left with Ti to take the long way around.

    So I would say this about Ni (and even more so for Ni integrated with Se as it increasingly is in me) from my perspective. How to use Ni/Ni-dom-with-Se-serving-Ni? Attend to how your body feels both literally and metaphorically. Attend to the visceral/gut sense, images, flashes of knowing that you get when moving through an environment. Don't try to understand what it means in conscious terms, trust the information in its unprocessed form. Act directly from that perception. Like listening to sound and responding in action to what you hear without running it through conscious processing.

    To the example about other people, this would fit with the difference between what people will say upfront and what they resonate outward on the specific visceral level that I specifically (Ni is subjective, linked my specific function and location) attuned to receive. In my case, that visceral level can be like musical notes or frequencies, with the truth of them is in their actual vibration (if that's the right word, like a string vibrating) rather than in the narrative of what anyone presents or says upfront. I've found similar stuff to be true with land, except that the overlay there is the human structural overlay rather than the ego or group narrative overlay.
    This particular example was to Ni-Te. Ni, when used in tandem with Te, allows you to somewhat accurately read the thoughts of people if you so desired. I often know what other people are thinking and can use that to my advantage.

    My understanding of it is that Ni-Fe can read people's emotions while Ni-Te (when actually put to this use) can read people's thoughts.

  2. #42
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    Could you explain Ne-Fi vs Ne-Ti?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    This particular example was to Ni-Te. Ni, when used in tandem with Te, allows you to somewhat accurately read the thoughts of people if you so desired. I often know what other people are thinking and can use that to my advantage.
    I must have misunderstood that the discussion was related back to this comment, or must have misunderstood the part in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ni -

    Act on your first impression of something, don't think about it, just do what your instinct tells you. You could try this with strangers maybe if you wanted an Ni-Fe combination. Look at one and then judge that person based on your first impression of them.
    I thought you were describing Ni-Fe since that's what source comment seemed to say.

    My understanding of it is that Ni-Fe can read people's emotions while Ni-Te (when actually put to this use) can read people's thoughts.
    My understanding is that the Jungian/MBTI cognitive function "feeling" is a judging function that judges based on human values. My understanding is that it is not about emotions despite common other usage of the word feeling as synonymous with emotion. As I understand it and experience it, Fe orients to values (cognitive function's "feeling") external to the specific individual (extroverted). Certainly this is the case with me.

    I'll leave you to be the expert on how Ni-Te works in you.

  4. #44
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    Look at someone that's talking to another person. See when they move and smile, and watch how the other person responds. Hear the tone of the voice, you should be able to tell if they're having a pleasant conversation or a bad one without even hearing the words they say. Imagine how their conversation might change if they were sitting down vs standing up. If they're having a nice conversation, imagine it taking place in a medieval dungeon. If it's hostile, imagine it taking place in a church. Think of how changing the setting affects the mood of the conversation and if there are people around them, how they think that these conversations are at odds with the environment and this evokes a stronger reaction.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Could you explain Ne-Fi vs Ne-Ti?
    The way I figured out I was an ENTP and not an ENFP was

    - I tend to seek the "underlying principle" in whatever I'm currently engaged in
    - "Seeking the underlying principle" tends to leave me with chronically poor social abilities (i.e., to notice others, engage them, relate to them, etc). My social calculations are far more geared toward what's appropriate, "manners", and social ritual. And I neglect them in favor of my personal understanding of a situation.

    I dunno if that's universally applicable for all ENTP/ENFPs, but I asked myself the same question once, and this was the answer I came to. Hope it's worth something.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    I thought you were identifying with SeFi? Or just in tests?

    I kind of relate to this here except I don't reflect on "loveliness" or that sort of thing much. Also if I notice something out there in the real world, I rarely start thinking about it. If I do think, it's disconnected from the environment. Take this for whatever it's worth.
    Yeah, Se and Fi. You have a good memory.

  7. #47
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ne:

    * Pick something that sparks your interest. This can be anything in your surroundings or a thought that's occurred to you or a person or even a feeling. Ask yourself where it came from, what likely caused it and what would happen if [insert a bunch of hypothetical scenarios]. Toy with all the scenarios and make spin-offs off by switching out the thing you're what-iffing about. Make it a point to include any kind of non-sensical stuff, so you disable the rules and prejudices of your own dominant function and to not be shut off from *ANY* possibilities. See the potential, however cockamamy, in *everything*.

    * I second the mind mapping exercise already in this thread. This is an excellent way to practice associating ideas with each other and making spin-offs, as indicated in the previous exercise


    * Take a topic, any topic and make it a point to understand *every* perspective you can come across on that topic - even the perspective you're absolutely vehemently opposing. Be the devils advocate and backtrack the reasoning of your opposition to be able to see their perspective. Learn all perspectives on a topic, value all of them in order to increase your understanding - and exercise manipulating the data on that topic - to such a level that you feel you have an absolute thorough knowledge on the topic and are able to see all angles on said topic, and on your opposition.

    Fi:

    * Do the above exercise, instead of with a topic, with a person. Gather all intel on what they value - observe them to take note of what is important to them and how they interpret certain situations. Based on that, backtrack how each value interacts with the other values that they hold and notice which value takes priority in which situation and what variables affect that change. This will allow you to compile their value codex. Now use that codex to predict their reactions to a specific situation to beta-test it, and map out the parts of their personality that are still obscure. This should however give you the main principles of their personality matrix.

    * Question your beliefs. Ask yourself why it is that you respond so strongly to something. Backtrack it back to it's source - what could've caused you to care so strongly about something in the first place? Was it a value that was instilled by you? Is it important to your dominant function? Does it protect your ego? And if so, is it due to a trauma that hasn't fully healed yet? Be curious about what drives you, what motivates you and question everything. Check your beliefs and see if you can find a rational explanation as to why you would value exactly those things. Wonder about your passions, about what makes you snipe, about what why you do not like that one particular person. It's an instinctual reaction, for sure, but where does it come from? Track it down to the root, so you *understand* who you are and can double check that what you value is in fact something you *want* to value, something you consciously and actively want to support and know *why* you want to support it.


    Combining Ne and Fi:

    * Gather all what-if data possible by going buffet style when researching something new. Be open to any option as you scout, even one's you're likely not to enjoy - you never know. Then take the time you need to tinker with and evaluate all the potential for all the options you've gathered and selecting the ones that are tailor-fit for you. Now fit that new puzzle piece into the other puzzle-pieces you've gathered in this area, in order to tailor your very own style on just about *anything*, and find what *you* are passionate about in life (and why)

    * Look at the person in front of you, after you've mapped out their personality matrix using the first exercise, take in the situation, take in account their background and past, and check your own emotional state to make sure it is neutral enough not to corrupt the data. Ask yourself how you would feel in their shoes. Truly feel it by imagining it vividly. Look at their body language and wonder, actively *wonder*, about what is going through their head right now. Notice yourself mirroring their body language as you do this. You're syncing up. Ask them a question about themselves - people love to talk about themselves. Listen to the intonation, inflection, and the way they parse their words in order to pick up on more than just the content of their rant. Are they hesitant? Are they pretending to be fine while in fact their voice has a flutter to it that indicates perhaps a nervousness or pain that is hidden? And what could hypothetically cause that, considering their background, the situation right now and their hot buttons. Ask a question in the direction you think the answer might be, but do NOT assume anything - ask in a very open and curious way and be ready to be wrong. Being wrong does not matter - their answer will point you even more in the right direction, again reading all the cues listed above.

    Once you've pinpointed what is going on and how you'd feel in their situation, empathised as such - remove your own personality codex and insert theirs. This is why a neutral state of mind is very important as strong emotions are harder to remove. Adjust for their past, their quirks and their drives - like putting on their goggles - then again imagine how you'd feel if you were this person in this situation. It'll give you all the info you need to make the sync complete and know what they need at this time.

    Now turn that around on them, and use your own inflection, voice intonation and word order to change their mood to address those needs. To give them hope, inspire them, distract them, whatever you've found to be lacking at this time with the previous exercise. Influence them by making them mirror you, and persuade them that joining you is more beneficial than staying where they're at. Use inflection, body language, word order, dramatic pauses to inspire freedom of choice, trust, comfort and lowering of shields which will increase their unconscious reflex of mirroring you and merging with the state of mind you want them to be in. It won't always be possible, depending on the severity of the emotional trauma going on and sometimes they'll need more than one session, as you walk them through several processing steps. (think the 5 stages of grief, for example.


    * Use the Cliff Notes version of the above to automatically evaluate every person you interact with in order to maximise your communication with them.




    Word of caution:

    the second Ne-Fi exercise can be incredibly harmful if you don't know what you're doing and you take it too far. It also can be incredibly addictive, intoxicating to both parties if done correctly and a tempting way to control others. Do not do this lightly. It should only be ever employed if the other person trusts you enough, has given you leeway on this area and when your mind is firmly focused on THEIR wellbeing and not your power trip. Your benefits should only be a side effect and NEVER the main course, to safeguard against getting wrapped up in yourself at their expense.
    I need to PM you sometime 'bout this stuff.

    But in the meantime -- not to thread hijack, and as a token of the gratitude for your *explaining* the mystical NFP powers --
    have you seen my description of Ni (as seen from within an alpha-male INTJ)?

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2234762
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @valaki

    Quick judging, when used correctly, can often tell you more about people than people will tell you upfront.
    Key word: "when".


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    So I would say this about Ni (and even more so for Ni integrated with Se as it increasingly is in me) from my perspective. How to use Ni/Ni-dom-with-Se-serving-Ni? Attend to how your body feels both literally and metaphorically. Attend to the visceral/gut sense, images, flashes of knowing that you get when moving through an environment. Don't try to understand what it means in conscious terms, trust the information in its unprocessed form. Act directly from that perception. Like listening to sound and responding in action to what you hear without running it through conscious processing.
    Hmm the last sentence is how I work by default. But I thought it was Se because I don't really have "images" running in my mind. It's just the responding by action without conscious thinking. I'm pretty instinctual too, so I relate to this visceral thingie. Though I wouldn't call that hunches. Sorry it's hard to explain. So maybe those two things are main differences between these two modes of perception?

    Guess another difference would be of course that a Ni-dom wouldn't need to check with actual data consciously to verify the hunches to feel "better"? I like hunches but I like to verify them as well, or it just does not seem as "great" to me, somehow. Still, the hunches feel "cool". Example, maths, I would be totally disinterested in it if I didn't easily get the intuitive feel to it. But I like to prove the intuitive stuff by fleshing out the logical steps. I prefer to do this for error checking as well, though I don't really catch errors most of the time, the intuition is usually right. Btw I don't use the word "hunch" in this context now because within this scope they are so strong that it's pretty clear what they are. If that makes sense. The word "hunch" to me implies vagueness and a sense of uncertainty and intuition is not like either of these, in this example area, for me (maths, as above).


    To the example about other people, this would fit with the difference between what people will say upfront and what they resonate outward on the specific visceral level that I specifically (Ni is subjective, linked my specific function and location) attuned to receive. In my case, that visceral level can be like musical notes or frequencies, with the truth of them is in their actual vibration (if that's the right word, like a string vibrating) rather than in the narrative of what anyone presents or says upfront. I've found similar stuff to be true with land, except that the overlay there is the human structural overlay rather than the ego or group narrative overlay.
    I've heard about the vibes stuff before. How often does it work and how often does it turn out that the initial vibe based guess was wrong? You can take this as a provocative question but it really is about a lot more than just that.

    I don't really make any conclusions based on initial vibes when seeing / interacting with people. I do notice differences in "style" between people but I can't really put it into words and I don't use this for any conclusions. It's too vague I think. It to me is just a "flavour" to the person, usually. I have never tried analysing any of this or checking it against concrete data, that is, e.g. this person has this vibe, check it against what the person is like as objectively experienced later over time, then draw conclusion. I just don't do that.

    So I guess that's a good contrast to how an Ni-dom uses Ni. I assume you do draw conclusions before waiting for more data over time? E.g. you willingly guess what someone is like or what their motivations are. By drawing conclusions I also mean you act based on the perception and you can afterwards explain on a conscious level too if you wish? Or am I wrong in guessing the latter or any of this?


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Yeah, Se and Fi. You have a good memory.
    Wasn't hard to remember, so few ESFPs on here

  9. #49
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    Fe:
    See everyone's emotional problems, plus and minus. strengths and weaknesses

    Ni:
    Take whatever someone said that they thought sounded nice, and reword it to give the opposite effect that was originally intended.
    "I'm not arrogant, you're just inferior."

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    Fe:
    See everyone's emotional problems, plus and minus. strengths and weaknesses. Give that person something to satisfy their emotional weakness so that they will feel indebted to give you something in return.
    Stand upright as if you are the president of a large and scary corporation. Everyone will treat you as such.

    Ni:
    -Take whatever someone said that they thought sounded nice, and reword it to give the opposite effect that was originally intended.
    "I'm not arrogant, you're just inferior."
    -When in a great relationship, start thinking about how everything is simultaneously going wrong.
    -When talking about how jesus was the son of god, also talk about how he was the morningstar: the same title given to lucifer.
    -When talking about christianity being correct, also talk about how satanism is equally valid.
    -Sit in a chair like a vegetable until the spirit world gives you its spontaneous divine insight.

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