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  1. #31
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Ni -

    Act on your first impression of something, don't think about it, just do what your instinct tells you. You could try this with strangers maybe if you wanted an Ni-Fe combination. Look at one and then judge that person based on your first impression of them.

    Always be on the lookout for hidden meaning in everything. When I read a book, I find myself absorbing the words passively and crafting the story in my mind by reading past (behind) the words and style.

    Te -

    Always be trying to implement what you know to situations at hand in reality. I often find myself applying things I learned recently to solve new kinds of situations or problems.

    Always know how efficient you are being and try to be as efficient as you can when doing something.

  2. #32
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Can you write about Te exercises?
    1. Identify a goal
    2. Identify requirements to reach said goal
    3. Assess pros & cons and choose path that gets you closer to goal
    4. Implement
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #33
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I understand that more than the above one but I find it's a high cognitive load for me to try and think for long about that sort of stuff. As for acting accordingly, that's even harder. That in my case would require stopping all the time to think about what action is "according" to the "feelings". And then control myself to a degree to actually do so. Seems to me pretty foreign. It doesn't mean I can't act instinctively based on feeling but it's never something that's consciously thought through.

    How about you give some specific and simple exercises instead? Maybe those are more doable :P (Or not....)
    Yeah, it's a high cognitive load for me to use other functions too. Fi comes naturally to me though. I'm constantly, without trying, relating everything I see and do to how I feel about it. Even if I don't express it overtly, it's impossible for me to separate my experience from my feelings about it. It's almost like I don't know where else to act from. Where do you act from instinctively?

    Hm, an exercise? This is so weird for me to do since it *is* second nature to me. But I guess I'll give it a go since it's been directly requested of me

    Ok, um, think about the universe. Then think about every single person who's lived and will live. Now think about where you fit into that. What do you have inside of you that makes you yourself? This is your ultimate responsibility. To be yourself within humanity. Now, make every attempt to find what that means in every facet of your life. How do you respond when someone asks you a question? What do you do when you have to make a decision?

    Now think about every other person. Allow and encourage them to be themselves. This is the way they will be able to contribute their own personal flavor to the world. If you find a force that is oppressing someone in that way, stand up to it. Or encourage that person to give that force a stiff middle finger and to value what's inside of them more highly.

    Express yourself and show your personal flavor in order to encourage others to do the same. Influence through adhering to your own beliefs rather than trying to argue for them. Everyone has the right to their own, and no matter how strongly you oppose them, their right to choose them reigns supreme. Be in love with their differences, and desire for them to bloom.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Hm, an exercise? This is so weird for me to do since it *is* second nature to me. But I guess I'll give it a go since it's been directly requested of me

    Ok, um, think about the universe. Then think about every single person who's lived and will live. Now think about where you fit into that. What do you have inside of you that makes you yourself? This is your ultimate responsibility. To be yourself within humanity. Now, make every attempt to find what that means in every facet of your life. How do you respond when someone asks you a question? What do you do when you have to make a decision?

    Now think about every other person. Allow and encourage them to be themselves. This is the way they will be able to contribute their own personal flavor to the world. If you find a force that is oppressing someone in that way, stand up to it. Or encourage that person to give that force a stiff middle finger and to value what's inside of them more highly.

    Express yourself and show your personal flavor in order to encourage others to do the same. Influence through adhering to your own beliefs rather than trying to argue for them. Everyone has the right to their own, and no matter how strongly you oppose them, their right to choose them reigns supreme. Be in love with their differences, and desire for them to bloom.
    That's just amazingly beautiful! While this isn't something I can do, your description is really deeply resonantly accurate to what I have observed of the capacities of my Fi-dom partner when she's otherwise well and centered. I feel like you've put into words a conceptual key that links together various things that have befuddled me at times about where she's coming from. Reading this, I can see how these things that appeared fragmented and confusing for me are actually related and part of a deep pattern. Somehow you've put it all together in a way that I can grasp (even if it's not something I can do myself). I'm really moved. Thank you for this.

  5. #35
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I dont believe that teaching others how to use some functions that they dont naturally use is possible. Usage of the functions has unconscious catalysts and trying to imitate some function is just an imitation of the function, not actually using the function.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  6. #36
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    How2Ne:

    Take your preconceived notions of the universe and kindly smash them with a hammer.

    Look at everything as something to be unlocked, every situation as just hiding something more exciting. Never be fully present.

    Work on the whole "unlocking" concept by constantly drawing analogies. What connection(s) can be drawn between the two that releases new potential?

    Keep in mind that nothing can ever be too "out there." Bonus points if when you find something "out there," you shout "Eureka!" and excitedly announce it to several people


    How2Ti:

    If everyone feels the same way about something, it is probably stupid and needs to be corrected by you.

    Think about stuff. Then think about thinking about that stuff. Then think about thinking about thinking about that stuff.

    Practice by correcting everything someone says by saying, "actually...." Even if it is right, it could always be even more right. Make things the rightest most maximum right.

    Lock yourself away in a quiet room for several hours and come out with a whole new theory made of only your interpretation

  7. #37

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    I am not sure what my two top functions are but here is how I normally operate. I either start with an idea or notice something. So I am thinking or looking, sensing something. If it is an idea I either think about it and reflect on it or do something. Depending on the idea. If the idea is hot coffee, I either make hot coffee or abstractly reflect on it's loveliness. If it is something I notice I either reflectively do something or begin the thought/idea thing.

    I think that is what I do, anyway.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I don't know just for all the decisions I make there is always a tactical reason behind it. I'm like a video game character on a battlefield or a top down RTS game. For example do I want to date this girl? She has these qualities I like and these qualities I don't like. I will make a strategic decision not to date her because it doesn't help my overall goals. What kind of food do I want? This food is going to make me foggy so I will eat something lighter so I can focus better. I don't know about step by step logic I imagine something more like what dj wrote about Ti.
    I see. I sometimes do these things you describe, otoh I don't relate to DJ's stuff too much. I mean I can do it but meh.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    By ignoring the rules of reality
    You're STP, right? This might go against every instinct you've got
    STP is possible. Aye, it does go against every single instinct I have But you described it really well, thanks! Your examples were actually funny


    Instead of focusing on how to get there, you go 'wouldn't it be awesome if' and come up with the most cockamamy thing you can think of that would make the situation hilarious, perfect in a fairytale way, or out-of-the-box original.
    See that's the thing, I'd focus on how to get there and so I'd lose interest pretty fast. Sometimes for a joke it can be funny, sure.


    Yes, most of this is just for amusement or hilarity but on occasion you come up with something so out of this world...it actually would work. Those are the gold nuggets you're looking for, but you never would've found them if you hadn't suspended reality long enough to actually look at the pieces of the puzzle that way.
    I see, well my creativity works in a different way. I'd fail the ordinary creativity tests that really test for Ne but I can use other ways to find really cool solutions.


    Some of it is certainly feasible with Ti. Or rather, you can accomplish some of the same goal with Ti, though I'd say it is less suited to it.
    I'd say that backtracking the values and compiling the value codex to a certain individual is however the Fi-method. As is swapping it out for yours in order to fully step into the situation as that person. The mirroring instead of detaching.

    I think the main part that makes it Fi though is the type of information used to put together a map of the person. It works with highly personal and subjective information to get a full image of that person - information that it is typically discarded by Ti because it is considered non-sensical. It therefore collects this same information that is highly personal and subjective (and perhaps non-sensical at this particular moment to you) to this specific living being you re trying to figure out - because that information is what makes them who they are and has its own logic to it, its own consistency. There is a reason that it exists, and was created and functions the way it does.
    Can you give some examples where you take some Fi stuff and explain its way of being logical and consistent? Btw thanks, this Ti vs Fi thing here is also a really nice explanation here.


    And gathering and assimilating it - provided you do it properly - can give you access to almost literally walking a mile in that person's shoes and experience things as if you were them (think of it as a flight simulator). You get to access to how *they* perceive the world, how that affects *them* in a way you would never be affected, due to a,b and c happening in their past, and why *they* respond to a situation in a particular way and take decisions which to *them* are the right decision, how *they* prioritise their life and how those priorities colour and affect the outcome of your life as well as the way you look at life.

    You become the other person - for just a moment. And that is quite nifty
    O_o interesting.


    That's coz you re a T-user
    Is it that obvious?


    It's about going back to your own priorities. Often, people adhere to things they don't truly believe in, that don't suit their own goals and priorities in life. Why? Coz society told them to. Or, coz their parents valued this and it was drilled into them for 20 years. Or coz they went through a traumatic experience which instilled so much fear into them that they now waste oodles of energy on actively trying to avoid that stuff. (...)
    Now all that's interesting again. Btw you mention an Inner Judge, I don't really have that myself, what is it like for you?


    When you *know* why you prioritise something, why you actively pour energy into something you believe, you are a lot more carefree and a lot more focused on your goal coz there are no more internal conflicts to distract you and rob you blind of your energy.
    Hm well my only issue is procrastinating some stuff that I should be doing sooner. I actually think it's this lack of "inner judge" and thus being extremely carefree that allows me to slack off so much with some stuff until external circumstances put enough pressure on me to get motivated and go do the stuff. Of course until then I gladly spend time by doing other stuff that I am motivated to do on my own. Is this then somewhat paradoxical to what you were explaining above? Or can it be reconciled? I'm working off a terribly superficial analysis here because that's all I have right now.


    Yeah..I guess it is. Ehhm...This is ...well how the Fi-system looks. At least for me. You know how Ti fits logically into each other, how you can backtrack the validity of an argument? Fi does that with your values. It has to make logical and consistent sense - based on the value axioms you're working with. When someone does one thing, but in other situations clearly shows that he values the opposite, that is an inconsistency.
    Well heh because I don't try to seek a rational explanation for personal preferences, I don't see that as inconsistency unless it has certain practical consequences.


    The more you know about how *you* work, the more you start recognising that the things you do on autopilot have a reason. A motivation, an intention, a drive as such. And each little cog spins that way with purpose. But just like certain systems have obsolete cogs coz they haven't been dusted and maintained properly, we too have knee-jerk reactions and old habits that are no longer serving us any purpose, or are in desperate need of an upgrade. Going through those motivations, through those beliefs and sorting out the ones that you want to keep and the ones that are no longer relevant to your situation will - much like a computer - make you run smoother and faster.
    Sounds nice in theory, in practice this sounds like a looot of cognitive load Like, the part about deciding what to keep and what not to keep and then act based on this. As I already said in this thread, it'd be hard for me to act like that. Willingly putting limits like that on myself?? :o You'd probably find me terribly inconsistent with some stuff if you knew me. OK it's not as bad maybe, I'm not inconsistent with everything, just some values stuff. There's some other things I'm pretty consistent about, though.

    The part about figuring out the reasons for why I do something, that sounds more rewarding, though. Maybe that's something Ti and Fi share, or some other function can affect this too, like Ni.


    Still just an animal behaviourist/armchair shrink, sorry.
    And not interested in doing psychology?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ni -

    Act on your first impression of something, don't think about it, just do what your instinct tells you. You could try this with strangers maybe if you wanted an Ni-Fe combination. Look at one and then judge that person based on your first impression of them.
    What good does that quick judging do?...


    Te -

    Always be trying to implement what you know to situations at hand in reality. I often find myself applying things I learned recently to solve new kinds of situations or problems.

    Always know how efficient you are being and try to be as efficient as you can when doing something.
    I assume that's Te with a load of Ni. Sounds pretty cool, I don't do these TeNi things as much. Interestingly enough, it's not that it'd be that hard, it's just that my mind doesn't constantly tune itself into this direction. Sometimes it feels like it'd require too much extra time to stop and consider things for improving efficiency. Impatience, basically. Do you spend some time on designing efficiency?


    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    1. Identify a goal
    2. Identify requirements to reach said goal
    3. Assess pros & cons and choose path that gets you closer to goal
    4. Implement
    And do you do this all the time?


    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Yeah, it's a high cognitive load for me to use other functions too. Fi comes naturally to me though. I'm constantly, without trying, relating everything I see and do to how I feel about it. Even if I don't express it overtly, it's impossible for me to separate my experience from my feelings about it. It's almost like I don't know where else to act from. Where do you act from instinctively?
    Yes funny how different people can be ;p My experiences are usually objective and impersonal. That's where I act from. If that makes sense.

    This is not to say that I can't be excited and passionate, I can actually be like that pretty easily. But the experience itself is usually still separate from feelings.

    And when I said I can act instinctively based on feeling or more like, based on emotion, I'm still more focusing on the action that's driven by the emotion. I don't stop to reflect on what I feel, let alone evaluate it in the way you do it. I just live it, I mean the action and the emotion itself if it's strong enough.

    Is this very foreign for you then?

    In MBTI you could say all this has to be one of only two functions, Se / Te, right? Except the emotional thingie maybe ;p


    Hm, an exercise? This is so weird for me to do since it *is* second nature to me. But I guess I'll give it a go since it's been directly requested of me
    Thanks

    That question about: "What do you have inside of you that makes you yourself?", are you able to answer that in a long essay I assume? I cannot, at best I can say I feel special and I cannot go much beyond that without effort. Though I can after all get to list some things if thinking about it enough. It does not do a lot though, the reward from it is volatile. Meaning, I easily stop focusing on these things and inevitably I'll forget all of it soon and return to living in the way explained above.

    Most of the other questions are even more going over my head (Well I can describe my decision making process but I bet it's not from the same angle you meant that...) But it's very nice exercises otherwise, I'm sure it'll be nice for whoever can do them!


    Now think about every other person. Allow and encourage them to be themselves. This is the way they will be able to contribute their own personal flavor to the world. If you find a force that is oppressing someone in that way, stand up to it. Or encourage that person to give that force a stiff middle finger and to value what's inside of them more highly. (...)
    That's actually something I "get" though Maybe it's not Fi-specific as much? Still, I really do have to laugh at the "giving a stiff middle finger"

    Again, nice stuff, that and the rest of your post as well!


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dont believe that teaching others how to use some functions that they dont naturally use is possible. Usage of the functions has unconscious catalysts and trying to imitate some function is just an imitation of the function, not actually using the function.
    Or maybe it's still using it, just not in as a refined or as highly differentiated way?


    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    How2Ti:

    If everyone feels the same way about something, it is probably stupid and needs to be corrected by you.
    Hahaha, die, groupthink.


    Practice by correcting everything someone says by saying, "actually...." Even if it is right, it could always be even more right. Make things the rightest most maximum right.
    While making yourself sound a real asshole in the process. :o I do it myself too much. :p


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I am not sure what my two top functions are but here is how I normally operate. I either start with an idea or notice something. So I am thinking or looking, sensing something. If it is an idea I either think about it and reflect on it or do something. Depending on the idea. If the idea is hot coffee, I either make hot coffee or abstractly reflect on it's loveliness. If it is something I notice I either reflectively do something or begin the thought/idea thing.

    I think that is what I do, anyway.
    I thought you were identifying with SeFi? Or just in tests?

    I kind of relate to this here except I don't reflect on "loveliness" or that sort of thing much. Also if I notice something out there in the real world, I rarely start thinking about it. If I do think, it's disconnected from the environment. Take this for whatever it's worth.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    @valaki

    Quick judging, when used correctly, can often tell you more about people than people will tell you upfront.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Quick judging, when used correctly, can often tell you more about people than people will tell you upfront.
    FWIW, that's not how Ni with Fe-aux actually works a lot of the time in me. In me, Fe-aux generally flows in the other direction - meaning, it initially assigns a high default legitimacy to external values and judgements. So Ni or Ni-Se gets that quick impression/gut sense/visceral information you may be referring to, but Fe-aux undermines that as a valid source of information. Fe-aux would orient me to downplay that Ni or Ni-Se information in favor of what people claim is going on, if there is a difference (and there quite often is). In order to trust Ni, I have to go against that Fe-aux push. This means that in order to act on that visceral Ni information, I can't judge at all if I am to act quickly. If I am to act quickly on the information, all I can do is perceive. If I try to judge - that is, use an actual judging function - I'm left with Ti to take the long way around.

    So I would say this about Ni (and even more so for Ni integrated with Se as it increasingly is in me) from my perspective. How to use Ni/Ni-dom-with-Se-serving-Ni? Attend to how your body feels both literally and metaphorically. Attend to the visceral/gut sense, images, flashes of knowing that you get when moving through an environment. Don't try to understand what it means in conscious terms, trust the information in its unprocessed form. Act directly from that perception. Like listening to sound and responding in action to what you hear without running it through conscious processing.

    To the example about other people, this would fit with the difference between what people will say upfront and what they resonate outward on the specific visceral level that I specifically (Ni is subjective, linked my specific function and location) attuned to receive. In my case, that visceral level can be like musical notes or frequencies, with the truth of them is in their actual vibration (if that's the right word, like a string vibrating) rather than in the narrative of what anyone presents or says upfront. I've found similar stuff to be true with land, except that the overlay there is the human structural overlay rather than the ego or group narrative overlay.

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