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  1. #21
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ^I think that Ni-Fe comes to the same conclusions using a different path, @greenfairy. It'll in fact be interesting to contrast and compare the descriptions, I'd say. The same will be true to contrast and compare INFP vs ENFP and ENFJ vs INFJ, I think, as they use the functions in a different way.

    Love this thread idea
    Yes! I guess we would need something like some value association to start with, and then we would examine how it got there in ourselves? I'm really curious about Fi in particular, as it seems to defy adequate description in words. So knowing how it works via another method helps a lot.

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    Ti/Ne: Think up new creative ways to cheat the system, any system

  3. #23
    #KUWK Kierva's Avatar
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    @Chanaynay please pay attention

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    This is how my mind works when it comes to my own feelings about something, except that the feeling are usually negative and I think of all the possible ways that something is going to go wrong.
    C#2-C#5-F#5
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  4. #24
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    Ti - sooner or later the one who wins is the one who thinks they can

    Se - he says, "the best way out is always through"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vetani View Post
    @Chanaynay please pay attention

    This is how my mind works when it comes to my own feelings about something, except that the feeling are usually negative and I think of all the possible ways that something is going to go wrong.
    Si

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    Quote Originally Posted by fghw View Post
    Ti/Ne: Think up new creative ways to cheat the system, any system
    lol this is so true. My older brother is making a racing video game, and he handed it over to my INTP brother, who then tries to break the gameplay mechanics by making vehicles that defy the laws of physics.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    So I was thinking it would be cool if everyone spent a couple seconds to write some ways on how to use your dominant functions so that others can ponder their usage.
    Cool thread!

    Extroverted sensing exercises:
    -Get a piece of paper and write down everything around you that appeals to the 5 senses that actually exists. These must be sensory facts that everyone else can agree on: The room is dark. The air is rushing through the room. The walls are white. The carpet is a rough texture. There is a noise of crickets outside. etc. None of these should be about how they make you feel.
    -When standing in front of company, imagine putting you hand on their shoulder and pushing them as hard as you can. Will they fall over? will they push back? What will their physical reaction be?
    -Think about ice cream and how it tastes. Do not stop thinking about the taste of ice cream until it is in your mouth. Make orgasmic noises upon consumption. Mission accomplished.
    -Imagine the tissue box across the room hurling to the opposite side of the room. Do not stop thinking about this kinesthetic energy until it has come true.
    Cool, I just don't understand why it involves so much thinking and imagining. Do instead of imagining, IMO. (Though with the exercise of pushing another person, of course only do that to people who'll be okay with it. My Fe has just come out of the unconscious!)

    And, as for the first exercise, I would feel really bored having to put all that into words and then write it all down. I suggest instead simply paying attention by constantly "scanning". React to everything you want to react to. Don't try to force a response just because it's an exercise. Don't explicitly think. Let things "flow" instead. Also, you will want to move on pretty fast if a place is shit. So include that in the exercise, literally physically move on if you exhausted everything.

    I'll add another exercise, I'm not sure if it's pure Se or if it involves Ti or what, and it might be really hard for some people; go to a new place, an unknown part in a city or something, and try navigating around without trying to think too hard about it. Go by instinct if unsure. After you've done all that successfully, optionally take a little time building up a map inside your head for fun and for future reference.


    Introverted thinking exercises:
    -Think about the person closest to you. Ask yourself the following questions: "How can I make him laugh?" "How can I make him cry?" Make a plan in your mind as to how you will go about this. See every step in your mind.
    Is that not more Fe-ish?

    Lol at the "poking jim" plan btw...

    Hmm, for Ti I would suggest this, start playing with something, anything, that can be experienced in some way, then give yourself time to figure out how it works by paying attention to the logical patterns and structures and rules that emerge through playing and experimenting, possibly a lot of it, though you can get more efficient with the time use if you more consciously focus on this aspect. This version of Ti is probably really not like what a Ti-dom would give though. I think Ti-doms start right away with that focus and not "waste" time with experimenting too much. I dunno.

    Another Ti exercise I would suggest is the exact same @Sanjuro already gave. That's really "condensed" Ti, if you take that grammar book example... I'll elaborate on it. OK so you've dealt with the grammar book. Now try to apply your understanding when reading a text. Try to read the sentences by paying attention to what relations the words are in, how they work together, inside what structures and what the main structure of each sentence is and how that's all built up. Try to figure out unknown words going by this structure. I would also say, for me it's like Lenore Thomson's Ti, so I'll add the step of experiencing the grammar directly by e.g. writing sentences using it. That will make it possible to actually remember the logic.


    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Ti: I don't know pretend you are autistic. See past everything and penetrate everything you see as relevant to it's core. Understand and analyze everything on a strategic and tactical level that nobody else can and apply it to your goals. Understand how everything connects to each other and think with systems. Everything is a system and you can create new systems to solve problems. Understand and exploit these systems. Be a god that has complete control over his environment and can manipulate everything at will. Have an armoury of knowledge and tactics that become your weapons. Then laugh at everyone else who sucks and step on them like bugs.

    Se: Pick up a gun and shoot things. Go fast. Go faster.

    I read a book once that said how ESTP Ti is different. It's more step by step logic. ISTP Ti is more tactical.
    What is that tactical Ti like? Can you contrast it with step by step logic? I want to see if my logic is anything similar to your version. Mine isn't really step by step tbh. At its best it's more like a holistic picture where everything makes sense together with all the relevant relations included, no unanswered questions. Sometimes this isn't even consciously fleshed out, only when I try to put it into words by consciously reasoning about it to explain to someone else. Also, though this is another aspect of the logic, at its best it's an in-built instinctual ability to simplify things down to important parts, including pro's/con's, and make quick decisions based on that; best if I don't even have to consciously reason through all that, instead it's an already well-ingrained instinct. The only thing that's step by step about my logic is when learning some new topic but at the end of things when it all clicks together, it's no longer step by step.

    Btw I like what you said about being a god with control over stuff hahaha, I wouldn't mind being ISTP. I can sometimes be like that but if I was truly an ISTP I would be doing this all the time surely. I can see the advantages of dom Ti (as long as it's used practically).

  7. #27
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    Can you write about Te exercises?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophiaDeep View Post
    I think Fi is quite simple...just be yourself.
    But what does that mean exactly? Example. If I just act without thinking all the time, without any social masks either, am I not being myself?


    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Fi seems really straightforward to me. just think about how you feel about things, and act accordingly. no funny business.
    I understand that more than the above one but I find it's a high cognitive load for me to try and think for long about that sort of stuff. As for acting accordingly, that's even harder. That in my case would require stopping all the time to think about what action is "according" to the "feelings". And then control myself to a degree to actually do so. Seems to me pretty foreign. It doesn't mean I can't act instinctively based on feeling but it's never something that's consciously thought through.

    How about you give some specific and simple exercises instead? Maybe those are more doable :P (Or not....)


    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    And then you meet fuckers like @Vetani who are too Fi-polr to figure out how they feel.
    Yeah well... It's not really that it's hard to figure out how I feel. It's that focusing on the feeling, it takes some sort of energy. Hard to explain sorry :/ But I know the issue is not simply the act of introversion because I have no problem with Ti-ish stuff, which is clearly introverted too. The issue is more to do with the focus on this sort of Feeling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ne:

    * Pick something that sparks your interest. This can be anything in your surroundings or a thought that's occurred to you or a person or even a feeling. Ask yourself where it came from, what likely caused it and what would happen if [insert a bunch of hypothetical scenarios]. Toy with all the scenarios and make spin-offs off by switching out the thing you're what-iffing about. Make it a point to include any kind of non-sensical stuff, so you disable the rules and prejudices of your own dominant function and to not be shut off from *ANY* possibilities. See the potential, however cockamamy, in *everything*.
    How do you see potential in unrealistic crap? Sorry not trying to be too offensive But I'm curious, what kind of potential can be seen in such nonsensical stuff? Give me an example?


    * Take a topic, any topic and make it a point to understand *every* perspective you can come across on that topic - even the perspective you're absolutely vehemently opposing. Be the devils advocate and backtrack the reasoning of your opposition to be able to see their perspective. Learn all perspectives on a topic, value all of them in order to increase your understanding - and exercise manipulating the data on that topic - to such a level that you feel you have an absolute thorough knowledge on the topic and are able to see all angles on said topic, and on your opposition.
    I actually can do this pretty well, it just takes time and does require a shifting of mindset. I'm thinking if some of it's actually Ti, though. How would the Ne be different from Ti here?


    Fi:

    * Do the above exercise, instead of with a topic, with a person. Gather all intel on what they value - observe them to take note of what is important to them and how they interpret certain situations. Based on that, backtrack how each value interacts with the other values that they hold and notice which value takes priority in which situation and what variables affect that change. This will allow you to compile their value codex. Now use that codex to predict their reactions to a specific situation to beta-test it, and map out the parts of their personality that are still obscure. This should however give you the main principles of their personality matrix.
    That sounds pretty cool actually. I think some of this could be done through Ti as well :o What would you say is absolutely Fi specific stuff here?


    * Question your beliefs. Ask yourself why it is that you respond so strongly to something. Backtrack it back to it's source - what could've caused you to care so strongly about something in the first place? Was it a value that was instilled by you? Is it important to your dominant function? Does it protect your ego? And if so, is it due to a trauma that hasn't fully healed yet? Be curious about what drives you, what motivates you and question everything. Check your beliefs and see if you can find a rational explanation as to why you would value exactly those things. Wonder about your passions, about what makes you snipe, about what why you do not like that one particular person. It's an instinctual reaction, for sure, but where does it come from? Track it down to the root, so you *understand* who you are and can double check that what you value is in fact something you *want* to value, something you consciously and actively want to support and know *why* you want to support it.
    Oh this one, I never believed there is such a thing as a truly rational explanation for preferring one thing over another. Though if I get at it from a biological background, it can be explained in a fashion. But I'm not sure you meant that sort of explanation here

    I didn't quite get the bolded at all. That does seem like some advanced use of Fi. How do you determine if you really "want" to value something "in fact"? The fact that you strongly and passionately feel you care about something, isn't enough?


    Now turn that around on them, and use your own inflection, voice intonation and word order to change their mood to address those needs. To give them hope, inspire them, distract them, whatever you've found to be lacking at this time with the previous exercise. Influence them by making them mirror you, and persuade them that joining you is more beneficial than staying where they're at. Use inflection, body language, word order, dramatic pauses to inspire freedom of choice, trust, comfort and lowering of shields which will increase their unconscious reflex of mirroring you and merging with the state of mind you want them to be in. It won't always be possible, depending on the severity of the emotional trauma going on and sometimes they'll need more than one session, as you walk them through several processing steps. (think the 5 stages of grief, for example.)
    Are you a psychologist yet? :P

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    What is that tactical Ti like? Can you contrast it with step by step logic? I want to see if my logic is anything similar to your version. Mine isn't really step by step tbh. At its best it's more like a holistic picture where everything makes sense together with all the relevant relations included, no unanswered questions. Sometimes this isn't even consciously fleshed out, only when I try to put it into words by consciously reasoning about it to explain to someone else. Also, though this is another aspect of the logic, at its best it's an in-built instinctual ability to simplify things down to important parts, including pro's/con's, and make quick decisions based on that; best if I don't even have to consciously reason through all that, instead it's an already well-ingrained instinct. The only thing that's step by step about my logic is when learning some new topic but at the end of things when it all clicks together, it's no longer step by step.

    Btw I like what you said about being a god with control over stuff hahaha, I wouldn't mind being ISTP. I can sometimes be like that but if I was truly an ISTP I would be doing this all the time surely. I can see the advantages of dom Ti (as long as it's used practically).
    I don't know just for all the decisions I make there is always a tactical reason behind it. I'm like a video game character on a battlefield or a top down RTS game. For example do I want to date this girl? She has these qualities I like and these qualities I don't like. I will make a strategic decision not to date her because it doesn't help my overall goals. What kind of food do I want? This food is going to make me foggy so I will eat something lighter so I can focus better. I don't know about step by step logic I imagine something more like what dj wrote about Ti.

  10. #30
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    How do you see potential in unrealistic crap? Sorry not trying to be too offensive But I'm curious, what kind of potential can be seen in such nonsensical stuff? Give me an example
    By ignoring the rules of reality
    You're STP, right? This might go against every instinct you've got, but Dr.Who? Not fictional for me. That to me, is a very fun,very cooky and very real possibility
    Instead of focusing on how to get there, you go 'wouldn't it be awesome if' and come up with the most cockamamy thing you can think of that would make the situation hilarious, perfect in a fairytale way, or out-of-the-box original.

    We leave it up to TJs to figure out the how

    Let's see, examples....think of how many little girls want to be princesses when they grow up - before they get reality stomped into them. They see themselves for the kind of princess they could be.

    Dr. Who is definitely another in every way - a Ne-dom tv show if I ever saw one. A telephone box that travels through time? Angel-like enemies that can only move when you take your eyes off them? Swapping actors and passing it off as reincarnation? And using an incredibly low tech type setting to picture the farthest regions of the galaxy and its inhabitants while having a penchant for today's London? That is pure imagination and whimsy

    Yes, most of this is just for amusement or hilarity but on occasion you come up with something so out of this world...it actually would work. Those are the gold nuggets you're looking for, but you never would've found them if you hadn't suspended reality long enough to actually look at the pieces of the puzzle that way. I do this for fun with household objects - they rarely get used the way they're meant to be used coz I always imagine what else they could do...and then proceed to use them for that instead. My bookshelves hold kiwis. My laundry basket floats in the air coz I had no dresser to put it on. My bathrobe sash and the main water valve keep the laundry basket floating. My make up is used to recreate the flair of certain favourite fairy tale creatures - not to make me just look better. My hair doesn't use hair accessories, it holds itself up with a special knot. And my hair accessories are used to decorate my plants. Now imagine doing this with abstract concepts such as love, envy, gravity, having your own business, people and their wants, drives, etc

    I actually can do this pretty well, it just takes time and does require a shifting of mindset. I'm thinking if some of it's actually Ti, though. How would the Ne be different from Ti here?
    Many other functions do this in their own way, and perhaps I should've been more clear on this. Ti however automatically takes something apart and passes judgement. Ne is a perceiving function, so its speciality *IS* seeing things from different angles - without passing judgement. It hunts down all the pieces for Ti and Fi to judge, basically. It is a scout at best. Ti does the logical reasoning and working out the actual argumentation to argue each point. But the generating of the perspectives, seeing the options is for Ne- the perceiving part of the duo.

    That sounds pretty cool actually. I think some of this could be done through Ti as well :o What would you say is absolutely Fi specific stuff here?
    Some of it is certainly feasible with Ti. Or rather, you can accomplish some of the same goal with Ti, though I'd say it is less suited to it.
    I'd say that backtracking the values and compiling the value codex to a certain individual is however the Fi-method. As is swapping it out for yours in order to fully step into the situation as that person. The mirroring instead of detaching.

    I think the main part that makes it Fi though is the type of information used to put together a map of the person. It works with highly personal and subjective information to get a full image of that person - information that it is typically discarded by Ti because it is considered non-sensical. It therefore collects this same information that is highly personal and subjective (and perhaps non-sensical at this particular moment to you) to this specific living being you re trying to figure out - because that information is what makes them who they are and has its own logic to it, its own consistency. There is a reason that it exists, and was created and functions the way it does. And gathering and assimilating it - provided you do it properly - can give you access to almost literally walking a mile in that person's shoes and experience things as if you were them (think of it as a flight simulator). You get to access to how *they* perceive the world, how that affects *them* in a way you would never be affected, due to a,b and c happening in their past, and why *they* respond to a situation in a particular way and take decisions which to *them* are the right decision, how *they* prioritise their life and how those priorities colour and affect the outcome of your life as well as the way you look at life.

    You become the other person - for just a moment. And that is quite nifty


    Oh this one, I never believed there is such a thing as a truly rational explanation for preferring one thing over another. Though if I get at it from a biological background, it can be explained in a fashion. But I'm not sure you meant that sort of explanation here
    That's coz you re a T-user
    It's about going back to your own priorities. Often, people adhere to things they don't truly believe in, that don't suit their own goals and priorities in life. Why? Coz society told them to. Or, coz their parents valued this and it was drilled into them for 20 years. Or coz they went through a traumatic experience which instilled so much fear into them that they now waste oodles of energy on actively trying to avoid that stuff.

    When you backtrack to what you *truly* hold dear, you cut out the dead wood. You stop investing energy into things that drag you down, clutter up your mind and detract from who you are. It's the most important things you can do for instance when you suffer from depression. Make a list of what truly matters to you. And write the list of what that Inner Judge in your head is making you do for god only knows what reason. Now fight for your right to be you and tell that bitch in your head to stfu. This is how self-loathing is addressed, how self-acceptance comes to be and how you resolve the inner conflicts within you, the fights you deliver with yourself every day, so you free up that energy to devote to what *you* consider important. Not what some ghosts from the past in your head decide is right.

    When you *know* why you prioritise something, why you actively pour energy into something you believe, you are a lot more carefree and a lot more focused on your goal coz there are no more internal conflicts to distract you and rob you blind of your energy.

    I didn't quite get the bolded at all. That does seem like some advanced use of Fi. How do you determine if you really "want" to value something "in fact"? The fact that you strongly and passionately feel you care about something, isn't enough?
    Yeah..I guess it is. Ehhm...This is ...well how the Fi-system looks. At least for me. You know how Ti fits logically into each other, how you can backtrack the validity of an argument? Fi does that with your values. It has to make logical and consistent sense - based on the value axioms you're working with. When someone does one thing, but in other situations clearly shows that he values the opposite, that is an inconsistency. What happened in that one moment to trigger them to go against what they clearly and consistently take into account otherwise? Was it fear? Was it something in their immediate surroundings? Was it ulterior motive? Was it self-deception? And if so, what and why now? Which variable was off? Also: What variable did I miss? What did I not account for? What is different?

    The more you know about how *you* work, the more you start recognising that the things you do on autopilot have a reason. A motivation, an intention, a drive as such. And each little cog spins that way with purpose. But just like certain systems have obsolete cogs coz they haven't been dusted and maintained properly, we too have knee-jerk reactions and old habits that are no longer serving us any purpose, or are in desperate need of an upgrade. Going through those motivations, through those beliefs and sorting out the ones that you want to keep and the ones that are no longer relevant to your situation will - much like a computer - make you run smoother and faster.

    For example: If you remove the knee-jerk reaction you have to someone treating you the way your big brother did when you were little - too little to really defend yourself which made you rebel and feel powerless, you actually open yourself up to asking the question 'why do they feel the need to do this' and instead of rebel and run as you did as a child, your then only option, come up with a strategy to deal with this properly - as an adult. Otherwise you're doomed to feel helpless every time someone accidentally touches that trigger.

    And you remove that knee-jerk by understanding where it comes from, what motivated it, what its intention is, how it served you in the past and what has changed now and how you can remove the obsolete parts in order to fit your new priorities.

    Are you a psychologist yet? :P
    Still just an animal behaviourist/armchair shrink, sorry.
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