What the J/P dichotomy is and isn't

[HongDou]

To be clear, INXJs are more outwardly organized typically because of having an extraverted judging function first. This is especially true for IXTJ because of aux-Te.

Yeah, I always thought P/J described outward organizational behavior. That's why I think there are some general qualities that can come with the two letters.

Yeah, in Socionics they would be.

I don't think being INTP in MBTI would necessarily make you LIE in Socionics though. I feel like the functions are too different to prove any sort of causation, but yeah I'm sure there's a lot of correlations between like being ENFJ and EIE.

 

[entpersonal]

Yeah, I always thought P/J described outward organizational behavior. That's why I think there are some general qualities that can come with the two letters.



I don't think being INTP in MBTI would necessarily make you LIE in Socionics though. I feel like the functions are too different to prove any sort of causation, but yeah I'm sure there's a lot of correlations between like being ENFJ and EIE.

You mean LII? The whole intercorrelation thing is another topic for another thread.

 

[HongDou]

You mean LII? The whole intercorrelation thing is another topic for another thread.

Yeah I meant that. Damn me and calling everyone an extrovert.

 

[Evo]

This is why people are so adiment about making sure socionics and mbti are not seen as the same exact system.

IP's in mbti are less structured externally.

IJ's in mbti are more structured externally.

People equate external lack of structure with sloppiness.........bottom line.

So it's preconceived notions that prevent the two systems from correlating.

 

[skylights]

Yes, I am a close J/P. I am very much a planner and am an external organizer in contexts like work and shared spaces (though I tend to let my side of the bedroom go). And cognitively very NeFi.

I'm with [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] on the "sliding scale", and that organization and order may show up at different places in different individuals' lives.

As far as I understand, J/P is about whether you try to control your external environment more (J) or whether you try to control your internal responses more (P).

I think it's interesting that [MENTION=20779]entpersonal[/MENTION] mentioned "intentionality", which I think is probably more telling than organization/order. Js tend to be FAR more intentional than Ps - it correlates to the above explanation, where Js tend to see their actions as influencing the environment, while Ps tend to see them as responding to the environment.

The way I see it is perspective is a circle; Js look one direction and Ps look the other.

I do think that there is a fairly good correlation between ExxJs and outward organization, but the rest seem to depend largely on the individual. It seems like the rest of the bunch tend to have certain things they're meticulous about and other things that go to the wayside. Js are perhaps more aware than Ps about the messages they're sending with their outward structure, though.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I often score right in the middle on the J/P dichotomy. I don't read too much into this. I chalk it up to the fact that people will be far more multifaceted than can be measured with a type indicator.

Am I organized and schedule-oriented? Yes and no. There is no absolute or extreme. I like to organize my work and personal space, but maintaining that organization can be a bit of a challenge.

 

[HongDou]

Js tend to see their actions as influencing the environment, while Ps tend to see them as responding to the environment.

This is how I view it. My actions tend to be unplanned and spontaneous because they're more responses to what's happening around me. I'm usually uncomfortable (intentionally) influencing or controlling my environment in any manner. I guess if you had to put it in really simple terms it'd be J = directive and P = responsive.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Js also often prefer a directive communication style, as opposed to the informing style often preferred by Ps

 

[entpersonal]

Js also often prefer a directive communication style, as opposed to the informing style often preferred by Ps

That may be so. I believe the thing mediating that direct communication style would be the extraverted judging function, be it Te or Fe, and not the J per se.

 

[entpersonal]

This is how I view it. My actions tend to be unplanned and spontaneous because they're more responses to what's happening around me. I'm usually uncomfortable (intentionally) influencing or controlling my environment in any manner. I guess if you had to put it in really simple terms it'd be J = directive and P = responsive.

That responsive and perceiving style has more to do with you being Ne-dom than P.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

That may be so. I believe the thing mediating that direct communication style would be the extraverted judging function, be it Te or Fe, and not the J per se.

Cultural factors and upbringing might also play some part, but of course one style will still be used with more ease, more naturally.

 

[HongDou]

That responsive and perceiving style has more to do with you being Ne-dom than P.

So ESPs aren't responsive to their environment???????????????????????? Because no.

 

[entpersonal]

So ESPs aren't responsive to their environment???????????????????????? Because no.

SPs have Se, an outward perceiving function. They are very reception to environmental stimuli, much like Ne-doms. Where are you getting these ideas haha?

 

[HongDou]

SPs have Se, an outward perceiving function. They are very reception to environmental stimuli, much like Ne-doms.

Yeah, and ISPs and INPs have those functions too. They're still receptive to the same environmental stimuli.

 

[skylights]

That may be so. I believe the thing mediating that direct communication style would be the extraverted judging function, be it Te or Fe, and not the J per se.

I must be on the same train of thought as [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] here and not really understanding the distinction that you're making. The J types have extraverted judging functions as dominant or auxiliary, so it would follow that J indicates Je in MBTI/JCF translation. Were you meaning something more than that?

I do think there can be overlap with the direct, concrete, present nature of Se and the directiveness and external orientation of Je, generally moreso than with Ne and Je. But that comes across mostly in speech and less in action, and particularly in STPs. There also seems to be IxxJ and Pe/informing overlap, as IxxJs do lead with Perception and will tend to remark on their observations.

 

[entpersonal]

Yeah, and ISPs and INPs have those functions too. They're still receptive to the same environmental stimuli.

Indeed. I would argue ENXPs and ESXPs are most receptive of all because of Ne and Se, respectively, the extraverted perceiving functions!

 

[the state i am in]

semantic vs episodic.

it can't describe outward behavior unless we are entirely behavioristic. unless it determines us down to the smallest degree (which to me, doesn't make sense). it can, however, describe differences in cognition, which can be very difficult to integrate into a coherent framework for observation.

 

[HongDou]

Indeed. I would argue ENXPs and ESXPs are most receptive of all because of Ne and Se, respectively, the extraverted perceiving functions!

So, if ESPs, ENPs, ISPs, and INPs (generally) share these qualities, then it must be behavior that generally comes with being a P.

 

[entpersonal]

So, if ESPs, ENPs, ISPs, and INPs (generally) share these qualities, then it must be behavior that generally comes with being a P.

I disagree. There's a difference between the judging-lead receptiveness of, say, an INFP and the very open ENFP. Socionics actually considers Fi-Ne quite rigid and rule-oriented a la enneagram one. How familiar are you with these systems?

Also, there's the issue of IXXJ being lead perceivers and open in an inward sense, which erodes the point of INFP being more open than INFJ. I would say INFP can be more outwardly exploratory than INFJ because of INFP's Ne. INFJ is more exploratory than INFP overall, however, yet the exploration and openness is inward.

The thing causing the outward perceiving is not the P but rather the Se or Ne...

 

[entpersonal]

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] - I recommend you read Personality Junkie and get familiar with inner and outer perceiving versus judgement.