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  1. #41
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    I disagree. There's a difference between the judging-lead receptiveness of, say, an INFP and the very open ENFP. Socionics actually considers Fi-Ne quite rigid and rule-oriented a la enneagram one. How familiar are you with these systems?
    Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.

    Also, there's the issue of IXXJ being lead perceivers and open in an inward sense, which erodes the point of INFP being more open than INFJ. I would say INFP can be more outwardly exploratory than INFJ because of INFP's Ne. INFJ is more exploratory than INFP overall, however, yet the exploration and openness is inward.
    Exactly:

    Judging or Perceiving

    This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.
    The thing causing the outward perceiving is not the P but rather the Se or Ne...
    Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.

    @Chanaynay - I recommend you read Personality Junkie and get familiar with inner and outer perceiving versus judgement.
    This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.



    Exactly:





    Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.



    This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know.
    J related traits:

    Likes to have things settled
    Pay attention to time
    prefer to finish projects
    takes responsibility seriously*

    those obviously aren't really exclusive to outward judging types. an infp, in spite of being a P, could show those traits.

    just to make this clear - the last letter ONLY TELLS YOU whether you introvert/extravert judgement primarily.

    *that especially applies to infps…a P type

  3. #43
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.



    Exactly:





    Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.



    This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know.
    If you had read through personality junkie you would have seen that J/P isn't to be taken at face value - i.e., as denoting a lifestyle. Enough of this back and forth; if you can't see the obvious, then I can't help you.

  4. #44
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    J related traits:

    Likes to have things settled
    Pay attention to time
    prefer to finish projects
    takes responsibility seriously*

    those obviously aren't really exclusive to outward judging types. an infp, in spite of being a P, could show those traits.
    I'd still think it's more likely for an actual J to have those qualities. I know some IFPs that have really messed up their educational career by putting off responsibilities and doing what they want to instead.

    just to make this clear - the last letter ONLY TELLS YOU whether you introvert/extravert judgement primarily.
    So you're basically saying the functions take precedence over all other perspectives of MBTI?

    If you had read through personality junkie you would have seen that J/P isn't to be taken at face value - i.e., as denoting a lifestyle. Enough of this back and forth; if you can't see the obvious, then I can't help you.
    But if all Ps have Pe in the dominant or auxilary, like you said, and are very receptive to external stimuli then doesn't it make sense to say all Ps share that quality? I mean, of course there will be exceptions, since trying to fit every person into one of 16 types is messy. But still.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I'd still think it's more likely for an actual J to have those qualities. I know some IFPs that have really messed up their educational career by putting off responsibilities and doing what they want to instead.



    So you're basically saying the functions take precedence over all other perspectives of MBTI?



    But if all Ps have Pe in the dominant or auxilary, like you said, and are very receptive to external stimuli then doesn't it make sense to say all Ps share that quality? I mean, of course there will be exceptions, since trying to fit every person into one of 16 types is messy. But still.
    The thing to understand is that Ps aren't always outwardly disorganized, yet Ps ALWAYS have that predominate extraverted perceiving function!

  6. #46
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    The thing to understand is that Ps aren't always outwardly disorganized, yet Ps ALWAYS have that predominate extraverted perceiving function!
    Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.
    Well, remember, I started this thread just to discuss how J denotes a predominately extraverted judgement function, and P denotes an extroverted perceiving one. This actually came as news to a few members. So, you either are knowledgable on the topic already or too obstinate to benefit from further discussion.

  8. #48
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.
    As a refresher, this is the OP. Nothing groundbreaking.


    The J/P dichotomy tells you whether you extravert or introvert judging primarily.

    For example, the XNTP introvert thinking (lead judging function) because of the p letter and XNTJ extravert their lead judging function (Te) because of the j letter.

    The J/P isn't about being lazy or productive, or ordered versus sloppy. INXJ have a lead perceiving function, guys.

  9. #49
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Well, remember, I started this thread just to discuss how J denotes a predominately extraverted judgement function, and P denotes an extroverted perceiving one. This actually came as news to a few members. So, you either are knowledgable on the topic already or too obstinate to benefit from further discussion.
    Oh okay. I thought you were saying the common traits among types with different preferences didn't hold any merit. I mean, yes they're not always true but what I was trying to say was that the letters aim to describe common qualities. They're not 100% for certain but they can still be useful to look at just like the functions, temperaments, profiles, etc.
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  10. #50
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    My J/P is very much in the middle, but I relate to the cognitive functions and archetype of INFJ far more than INFP. There are a lot of subtle differences between the two, and I also line up with INFJ on those. It's the generalized differences in which I'm more ambiguous. I may not appear structured and I question the validity of all rules, but if you took a closer look at how I live my life the subtleties would tell a different story. I used to be a terrible student and would procrastinate and only do what I felt like, but I hated myself for it and I'm far happier now. I still don't get everything done. So I come down more on the side of J and P being more of a continuum than a dichotomy, but I believe the cognitive functions make a lot of sense too.

    J characteristics which apply to me:
    -synthetic thinker: if given a bunch of information I will immediately try to find a unifying theme.
    -dislike surprises
    -love planning, love organization of tangible objects, love preparation
    -try to keep converations on topic
    -like to limit my intake of information
    -value external and collective standards
    -set goals for myself
    -am organized and my belongings are neat, aside from some piles of papers or clothes or random junk I don't want to deal with atm


    P characteristics:
    -change my mind and don't follow my own plans if I don't feel like it
    -easily distracted
    -generally think it's not my business to influence or control other people
    -don't try to control the external world
    -think informing people is better than directing them
    -comfortable with not knowing the answers, but always like to have opinions
    -I pay attention to time and it makes me anxious, but not always, and I don't have a good understanding of it. I tend to think I have infinite time to do everything, and even though I generally do things quickly I get distracted with other things.

    So based on these it's not immediately clear I'm an INFJ probably. When I read description of J/P I could say both sets apply to me. I prefer to be a J but I'm sometimes not goot at it.

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