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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Hey there Valaki!
    Hey :p


    I am completely aware that models do not DETERMINE reality; I'm an IT Systems Analyst - I build all kinds of models all the time, I get it.
    I actually didn't assume that you really thought they determine reality, but the wording you used seemed a bit dangerous regarding that and that's why I mentioned this.


    However, models are frequently used to create REPRESENTATIONS of reality that are accurate to a degree acceptable by those using the model. Models also provide an opportunity for those using the model to have the benefits of (a) common language, (b) commonly defined relationships between the components of the model, and (d) commonly defined scope of the model's relevant range & applications, limitations and caveats.

    My point? Common understanding of a given phenomena can often be achieved by building a model that is reasonably accurate, and that allows those studying the phenomena do so intelligibly and more accurately than if all parties used their own proprietary jargon for the components of the model, and non-standardized relationships between the model's components and the myriad of potentially applicable outcomes.

    Again, my points are from my perspective - I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, but I'd wager tha others have similar sentiments for their own reasons.
    You don't need to convince anyone here, this is basic science 101 I'd just add that we don't even need to use science, our brains build models all the time... and then we have cognitive biases distorting the models and then consequently our viewing of reality may be distorted too. That's what I like to warn about a lot.


    This statement is out of scope for this discussion. I don't recall models of anything controlling reality as a topic in this discussion. Poorly defined models, or adhoc hybridization of similar models in diffetent ways over time will lead to poor understanding of the core material under study, and confusing discussions based on the prevalence of the widespread lack of common understanding noted above. That's really all I'm pointing out here, at least that was my intent.
    We are very much on the same page


    We do agree then more than not, yes?
    I never doubted this


    Yes, your three solutions above all work to various degrees in preventing ambiguity/confusion. There are limitations though. Rarely does one theory provide all necessary information to solve a complex problem.

    In such cases it might be necessary to use 2 or more models (provided their scopes, relevant ranges, and interaction effects between them are understood) - but that's basically a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) and it's actually a bit scary how many big decisions that have far reaching implecations are decided by a SWAG.
    Yes, that's why I said it's good to understand the differences between the models because in terms of personality theory just one model clearly doesn't cut it. I know though that a lot of people just go for the simplest solution - sticking with one model and ignoring the rest.


    Finally, debating about minutiae on the the Internet is fun, and so we likely tolerate the inaccuracies discussed above here on TypC than we would ever tolerate in our careers or studies.
    Yeah


    Agreed, I simply like Enneagram the best of them all, as I said above these are my preferences.
    I actually like Enneagram a lot myself but I can see some issues even there and that's exactly because I made myself familiar with the other models.



    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    However, there's more to it than just definition. The ISTJ shadow is not going to explain the only avenue in which the shadow of an ESTP's is revealed. The inferior and tertiary functions also live in the shadows of the dominant function. Even further...the aux (if not developed properly or enough) could be a route to revealing the shadow.

    That is, if we are talking about the entirety of the shadow of one person.

    And not just the shadow of the personality type called ESTP.

    There's more to shadows than just typology.
    I think this makes a lot of sense.


    And one of the ways that a shadow manifests itself, is by projection.

    When someone says "I hate when Jack always has to get his way." that is typically a sign of projection. And we project our shadow to protect ourselves. We don't want to have that quality of always having to get our way, cause that would make us unlovable. So we project it on to others as if it's their problem.

    The degree of how much you hate Jack for doing this....determines if it's a shadow, or how deep seeded the shadow is.

    We project shadows all day everyday. It's practically unavoidable. We are not perfect.
    I will have to observe myself more to see if I'm doing this much. With my dad, I've always been acutely aware of this, but I would have to watch it happening with other people.

    Oh and as for the concrete example you used; I'm the type who always wants to get their way, I think inside my family they accepted me this way (?), outside quite a few people have not. I still don't mind having this quality, I just don't like some consequences sometimes. I also don't mind it about other people. At best it'll make us fight hard So, apparently, the influence from people that happened later outside my family, isn't enough to make one push something down into the shadow? It usually happens when still a small kid?


    I actually don't like my dual most of the time.

    I have a lot of shadows dealing with ISFj's (socionics, ISFP's MBTI) that I'm working through atm.

    I like socionics, but I never have related to the relationships aspect.
    What's your type in Socionics? ENTj? What's there to love about Socionics ISFj's lol



    A shadow is something you've suppressed usually. For example as I child I repressed the side of me that was bored, and the side of me that wanted everything in the store. This is because my impression of what my parents had about those characteristics....was unlovable. That is shame.

    And now as I'm working through this shadow, I am realizing that there is no gd shame in wanting a candy bar in the store ha ha....

    I still have problems with the word bored. I still find it to be shameful to be bored...but this is my own shadow.

    I know there is nothing wrong with other people being bored. Most people accept this. I have not. So when other ppl say their bored I roll my eyes. That's an example of how I was influenced to think it was shameful. Know what I mean
    Ah, heh, I'm now thinking it's not as simple as just parents not accepting some of your traits. I mean, when I wanted stuff in the store, I either got it or not, often not because we had no money back then, and when I was nagging my parents I'm pretty sure they didn't like it, I didn't get praise for it for sure. Still it didn't affect me so I suppose in general I was accepted the way I was. In your case, did you get outright punishment for these things?

    And yeah I can affirm, absolutely no shame in wanting that candy bar (Just don't get fat :P)


    Yea, that is shame. ^
    In terms of not wanting to accept that stuff as part of my identity? So this kind of shame isn't necessarily directly motivated by external influence?

    Actually I don't recall anyone at home punishing me in any way for being slow moving - guess I was never slow anyway or for being withdrawn in my thoughts etc.


    Could be. Like I said, it's so hard to tell cause I don't know you that well, and can't see you face to face...stuff like that. Shadows are pretty personal and cannot always be seen via typing to one another.
    When you integrate your shadow, what's supposedly the result? Would it have any negative side effects?

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Here they say Shadow Processes, confirming what Wikipedia states.
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16Types/16Types.cfm

    And @andante mentioned the same thing to me.

    I'm going to be sneaky here and drag Socionics into this. Socionics says that your inverse (what you mentioned above when swapping the functions' order) is your dual. So why would you hate your dual? (yeah I know Socionics don't map entirely to MBTI)

    @edchidna1000 what are you making of this?

    The first thing I'm making of this is that one of you has confused the reversal of the first four functions in MBTI e.g. Ne Ti Fe Si to Si Fe Ti Ne with the shadow functions/processes e.g. Ni Te Fi Se for an ENTP.

    Now in Socionics, assuming a direct map from MBTI where the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th functions of MBTI map to the 1st, 2nd, 6th and 5th Socionics functions, we find that the Dual is the former e.g. Ne Ti Fe Si (ILE-ENTp) paired with Si Fe Ti Ne (SEI-ISFp).

    When Socionics version of 'shadow' functions are brought into play we get the Contrary relation i.e. when Ne Ti Fe Si (ILE-ENTp) is paired with Ni Te Fi Se (ILI-INTp).

    A Socionics Model A insight would be that for an ILE-ENTp, the functions in the 1st and 2nd positions belong to the Ego block while the 5th and 6th functions belong to the Super-Id block. These are the two 'valued' blocks where the information provided by those information blocks are appreciated.

    For the ILE-ENTp, Ni and Te would belong to the Id block and Fi and Se to the Super-Ego block, which are the 'subdued' blocks. The information from these are unappreciated, with the Id block seen as unnecessary/uninteresting while the Super-Ego block being a source of neurosis and inadequacy.

    As such if one were to assume this mapping of Socionics to MBTI... the shadow functions would be those that are disliked/unvalued by whatever type it is.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I will have to observe myself more to see if I'm doing this much. With my dad, I've always been acutely aware of this, but I would have to watch it happening with other people.

    Oh and as for the concrete example you used; I'm the type who always wants to get their way, I think inside my family they accepted me this way (?), outside quite a few people have not. I still don't mind having this quality, I just don't like some consequences sometimes. I also don't mind it about other people. At best it'll make us fight hard So, apparently, the influence from people that happened later outside my family, isn't enough to make one push something down into the shadow? It usually happens when still a small kid?

    Ah, this is a really great question.

    And I actually don't have an objective answer for this. I would look it up but I'm not able to, due to me being at work right now :P

    But seriously, it's a good question. I think my opinion would be that they can form at anytime. Anytime that we are impressionable. I don't know if that means just as a child.


    -And I also don't mind people that get their way. And I know I'm that type of person. I like that in me


    What's your type in Socionics? ENTj? What's there to love about Socionics ISFj's lol
    Well my MBTI type is ENTJ. But I am not sold that MBTI types directly translates in Socionics.

    Ah, heh, I'm now thinking it's not as simple as just parents not accepting some of your traits. I mean, when I wanted stuff in the store, I either got it or not, often not because we had no money back then, and when I was nagging my parents I'm pretty sure they didn't like it, I didn't get praise for it for sure. Still it didn't affect me so I suppose in general I was accepted the way I was. In your case, did you get outright punishment for these things?

    And yeah I can affirm, absolutely no shame in wanting that candy bar (Just don't get fat :P)
    I was punished because my mother said I was bad. I'm an E6, we have fear of abandonment....I felt punished....whether or not she was trying to impose shame upon me, she did. I felt like I was the worst kid in the world. And she told me that she would never go to the store with me again.

    In terms of not wanting to accept that stuff as part of my identity? So this kind of shame isn't necessarily directly motivated by external influence?
    Yea, that's a shadow. It doesn't have to be from an external influence...or at least you might not remember where the influence was from. The truth is we are all shy AND gregarious....you know? To deny ourselves of that is to create a shadow. We are full when we accept the light and dark of ourselves.

    Actually I don't recall anyone at home punishing me in any way for being slow moving - guess I was never slow anyway or for being withdrawn in my thoughts etc.
    It could still be a shadow even if you don't remember it coming from a particular influence.

    When you integrate your shadow, what's supposedly the result? Would it have any negative side effects?
    depends on what your shadow is. There are light and dark shadows.

    Also "negative" is subjective. Unless you mean detrimental...do you mean detrimental to health?

    For example...I like when I am with people that can't get along with some of my friends, I find that to be "negative" but that's a shadow. Because objectively it is not a bad or negative thing for someone to be stubborn. For me to work through that shadow I have to accept the fact that someone being stubborn can be a good thing. It's really that simple.

    In the process of working through a shadow I don't have any detrimental side effects...

    It may be subjectively uncomfortable...and I may let myself become a little more stubborn in the process...but it's not detrimental...

    make sense?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Ah, this is a really great question.

    And I actually don't have an objective answer for this. I would look it up but I'm not able to, due to me being at work right now :P

    But seriously, it's a good question. I think my opinion would be that they can form at anytime. Anytime that we are impressionable. I don't know if that means just as a child.
    Do let me know if you find some more answers for it.


    -And I also don't mind people that get their way. And I know I'm that type of person. I like that in me
    Cool!


    Well my MBTI type is ENTJ. But I am not sold that MBTI types directly translates in Socionics.
    Mine seems to translate but that means nothing yea


    I was punished because my mother said I was bad. I'm an E6, we have fear of abandonment....I felt punished....whether or not she was trying to impose shame upon me, she did. I felt like I was the worst kid in the world. And she told me that she would never go to the store with me again.
    I see :/ I don't recall being told "you're bad". Hmm.


    Yea, that's a shadow. It doesn't have to be from an external influence...or at least you might not remember where the influence was from. The truth is we are all shy AND gregarious....you know? To deny ourselves of that is to create a shadow. We are full when we accept the light and dark of ourselves.
    What's good about being shy ??

    But really, what, tell me?


    depends on what your shadow is. There are light and dark shadows.
    Haha no idea. Might be really goddamn fucking dark because I usually don't deal with that sort of stuff in my consciousness. (One of the reasons why I relate to type 7.)


    Also "negative" is subjective. Unless you mean detrimental...do you mean detrimental to health?
    No, if you mean physical health.

    In terms of mental health, maybe.


    For example...I like when I am with people that can't get along with some of my friends, I find that to be "negative" but that's a shadow. Because objectively it is not a bad or negative thing for someone to be stubborn. For me to work through that shadow I have to accept the fact that someone being stubborn can be a good thing. It's really that simple.

    In the process of working through a shadow I don't have any detrimental side effects...

    It may be subjectively uncomfortable...and I may let myself become a little more stubborn in the process...but it's not detrimental...

    make sense?
    I understand you but what I experienced in that period of my life was a feeling of being disconnected from the world. At one point I was not simply feeling disconnected but some internal feeling thingie* was turned off. That was simply too much for me and I decided to reverse that part of the process and I did.

    (*: Again going to have to think about ESFP... :P )

    Maybe that sounds strange about deciding to reverse a mental happening - maybe I just lucked out but I seem to have some natural control over some of these things. Not all of it though, that would be a superpower :P

    Anyway, that period, it wasn't simply depression because it was changing my outlook in many things. I basically developed some new side of myself. Some introverted one, yes. And as I said, there were also some good results from that.

    I'm sorry I don't know if any of this made much sense...?

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Mine seems to translate but that means nothing yea
    I don't think mine translates directly...actually I have had trouble with figuring it out.

    What's good about being shy ??

    But really, what, tell me?
    Well shy ppl usually think before they speak. They also think before they act. I think those are awesome qualities. Partly cause I don't have them I envy shy ppl sometimes. They look smarter....if you know what I mean.

    Being too self revealing of your thoughts can make others think you're incompetent.

    And shyness has it's own cuteness about it.

    They usually get along with everyone cause they don't say hurtful or abrasive things.

    (God I'm realizing I don't have a shy bone in my body )

    Haha no idea. Might be really goddamn fucking dark because I usually don't deal with that sort of stuff in my consciousness. (One of the reasons why I relate to type 7.)
    Ha ha well if you're not a self-loathing E4...it's most likely dark lol

    That example is a joke ^ of course.

    No, if you mean physical health.

    In terms of mental health, maybe.
    Yea I mean mental or physical.

    I understand you but what I experienced in that period of my life was a feeling of being disconnected from the world. At one point I was not simply feeling disconnected but some internal feeling thingie* was turned off. That was simply too much for me and I decided to reverse that part of the process and I did.

    (*: Again going to have to think about ESFP... :P )

    Maybe that sounds strange about deciding to reverse a mental happening - maybe I just lucked out but I seem to have some natural control over some of these things. Not all of it though, that would be a superpower :P

    Anyway, that period, it wasn't simply depression because it was changing my outlook in many things. I basically developed some new side of myself. Some introverted one, yes. And as I said, there were also some good results from that.

    I'm sorry I don't know if any of this made much sense...?
    Yes I understand what you mean.

    What you've described sounds like you went into some kinda E5 disconnect or something.

    You could have disintegrated for a while? And then maybe stopped it.

    Either way I am not the person to ask about detrimental lol ...cause I think everything happens for a reason (Yep I'm one of those ppl.)

    So I think, we shouldn't be actively look for suffering or anything...but we should look for the improvements we can make from it when it does happen. That way, you always get the most efficiency out of any situation.

    (btws...I thought I responded to this A WHILE ago...and then just realized I didn't sorryz)
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  6. #76
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    if I understood a fucking word INTP told me via youtube, the shadow is person specific, and is what you have been trained over the years to conceal. So for me, I don't tell anyone I'm nice anymore. In fact anytime someone thinks I did something nice I deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I don't think mine translates directly...actually I have had trouble with figuring it out.
    Did you see edchidna1000's socionics typing thread?


    Well shy ppl usually think before they speak. They also think before they act. I think those are awesome qualities. Partly cause I don't have them I envy shy ppl sometimes. They look smarter....if you know what I mean.

    Being too self revealing of your thoughts can make others think you're incompetent.

    And shyness has it's own cuteness about it.

    They usually get along with everyone cause they don't say hurtful or abrasive things.

    (God I'm realizing I don't have a shy bone in my body )
    Hey you certainly have the ability to reframe anything in a positive way ;p

    I disagree about one thing though, they don't necessarily look smarter, I think shyness is actually a disadvantage in terms of that. Though I can understand your reasoning


    Yea I mean mental or physical.
    Well I meant something like, if your shadow has qualities conflicting with qualities of your conscious, it would easily have negative results, instead of finding whatever balance. Making sense?


    Yes I understand what you mean.

    What you've described sounds like you went into some kinda E5 disconnect or something.

    You could have disintegrated for a while? And then maybe stopped it.

    Either way I am not the person to ask about detrimental lol ...cause I think everything happens for a reason (Yep I'm one of those ppl.)

    So I think, we shouldn't be actively look for suffering or anything...but we should look for the improvements we can make from it when it does happen. That way, you always get the most efficiency out of any situation.
    I do call it the big E5 disintegration yes :p

    In terms of MBTI it makes slightly less sense unless I'm ESFP because it was an INTx thingie. Though function-wise I could only categorize it as Ni+Ti. And if I go with ESTP then the Ti should still be okay. Or if shadow is the shadow functions, not the tertiary/inferior then it makes even less sense, it wasn't SiTe or SiFe. See it doesn't add up for MBTI ;p (Well or if ESTP can "NiTi-loop", sure...)


    (btws...I thought I responded to this A WHILE ago...and then just realized I didn't sorryz)
    No worries


    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    if I understood a fucking word INTP told me via youtube, the shadow is person specific, and is what you have been trained over the years to conceal. So for me, I don't tell anyone I'm nice anymore. In fact anytime someone thinks I did something nice I deny it.
    Why, do you want to be seen as a totally bad person or what?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Why, do you want to be seen as a totally bad person or what?
    Idunno if I WANT to... I guess I just don't want people thinking I'm going to give anything to them, because I"m actually too giving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    Idunno if I WANT to... I guess I just don't want people thinking I'm going to give anything to them, because I"m actually too giving.
    for that just learn to say "no". If I understood your problem correctly

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    for that just learn to say "no". If I understood your problem correctly
    they usually aren't yes no questions. They're usually people coming up to me and starting regular conversations and then it eventually turns into asking me for favors and calling me daily, and saying "please don't call me anymore" results in some kind of absolute move on their part to never speak to me again... which, perhaps is a good thing. Hmm...

    It comes in other ways as well. I listen to my family and advice people give me but frankly a lot of their advice isn't relevant. But they get mad when I don't take their advice and tell me I need to listen to them more and be more humble and blah blah blah... The hardest part is figuring out what is actually my fault and what is theirs, as I want to be objective through the whole situation.

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