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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    How controversial is this typing of Jung, do you know? Meaning, who identified his tert as Ni and is this widely accepted or not? I'm not challenging you, just curious. Associating his Ni development with his break from Freud is interesting. And that example seems very much like Ni to me, the communication of information in metaphorical moving image.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    As a natural scientist, thinking and sensation were uppermost in me and intuition and feeling were in the unconscious and contaminated by the collective unconscious. You cannot get directly to the inferior function from the superior, it must always be via the auxiliary function. It is as though the unconscious were in such antagonism to the superior function that it allowed no direct attack. The process of working through the auxiliary functions goes on somewhat as follows: Suppose you have sensation strongly developed but are not fanatical about it. Then you can admit about every situation a certain aura of possibilities; that is to say, you permit an intuitive element to come in. Sensation as an auxiliary function would allow intuition to exist. But inasmuch as sensation (in the example) is a partisan of the intellect, intuition sides with the feeling, here the inferior function. Therefore the intellect will not agree with intuition, in this case, and will vote for its exclusion. Intellect will not hold together sensation and intuition, rather it will separate them. Such a destructive attempt will be checked by feeling, which backs up intuition.
    Introduction to Jungian Psychology, Notes of the Seminar on Analytical Psychology Given in 1925 -- C.G. Jung -- Pg 75-76

    But as @reckful points out in his link, Jung, in a 1950s interview, identifies with Intuition over Sensation.
    Facetious Frank

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    more realistically, i understand that metaphysics is not easy to convey, and i think a self-conscious, metaphysical perspective is necessary to situate any discussion of cognitive functions. i think typology itself, broader than personality, is an art of metaphysics.
    Do you think typology overall is an art of metaphysics, or is the Ni meta-perspective approach shaping how you experience and approach it? (a real/not rhetorical question).

    i can't really capture the moving pictures and the holograms that start to come into shape apart from evoking bits and pieces here and there and trying to keep some of the smoke trails, before the thing disappears.
    Yeah, I have that experience too. Or something enough like it that I would say that.

    it's clear that i have a tangled, mass of unarticulated assumptions. if you'd like to have a conversation about them, i can try and would enjoy doing so. but you're right, even i'm self-conscious about spewing too much metaphysics all over this thread.
    For such a conversation: Do you think starting another thread would be a good place, or PM, or something else, or not at all....?

    i see it as the process of bridging uncommon denominators. fractalization is required to stabilize conditions for recognizing meaningful difference more clearly, even if in so doing, we are held accountable to the fact that perspective is bound by time. it's the power of symmetry to provide an axis of quasi-absolute direction in the mind.
    I'm getting fragments here. Don't know if my response is relevant to what you're saying, but:

    1. When I wrote what you responded to, I was thinking of a concept of fractal cultural transmission that I'd seen some years ago. So it's interesting that you mention fractalization.

    2. From my own Ni perception, time is just another coordinate of where something/someone/some situation is located. Movement from one vantage point to another can at times include time as one of the coordinates. I wonder if that does or doesn't connect to what you wrote.

    there's a book about "conceptual blending" that really goes into what i think you're saying. in cognitive psychology, i ran into the term "feature extraction." to set up a comparison/contrast between things operating at different logical types and to recognize the conditions of possibility that connect them, those metaphysical patterns we are describing, i think is how it works. it's analogical reasoning, or what is called abductive inference. it's a way of guessing what could be termed initial conditions but for our process are more like cosmological ones.
    I'm not following you here, but then if I understand correctly (do I?), you're trying to use external concepts/language to map to something you know/experience but may have no easy words for, and especially no easy shared words between us. Is that at all accurate? I often look for external conceptual anchors that can possibly communicate things that I otherwise find difficult to put into words. But those anchors aren't central for me .... they're just a tool that I hold very lightly to help with a certain kind of conscious understanding and communication. Does that make any sense to you?

    our national flag can be an example from the mandelbrot set, alongside which we can rename ourselves, "the cognitive function formerly known as Ni."
    I don't get the mandelbrot/flag reference but "the cognitive function formerly known as Ni" is really catchy! Do we get a symbol too?

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    Okay, so if I'm getting this, the answer to "is it widely accepted that Jung was Ni-tert?" is no and no one really knows what MBTI type he'd have been or even what his dominant cognitive function was, but people do try to figure it out in various ways and have come to various conclusions. Am I understanding this correctly?

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    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, you are understanding this correctly.

  5. #85
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    Ni doesn't exist. Sorry.
    But continue with your attempt at self awareness. eventually you'll outgrow self obsession, and typology will fall away naturally.

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    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    How controversial is this typing of Jung, do you know? Meaning, who identified his tert as Ni and is this widely accepted or not? I'm not challenging you, just curious. Associating his Ni development with his break from Freud is interesting. And that example seems very much like Ni to me, the communication of information in metaphorical moving image.
    He was definitely a Ti-Dom. In Psychological Types he mentions that he originally mistakenly equated Thinking with Introversion and Feeling with Extraversion because he was an Introverted Thinking type.

    He gave mixed messages about his auxiliary. During a set of lectures he gave in the 1920s he said that he said that Thinking and Sensation were "foremost within him", though during an interview in his later years he said Thinking and Intuition were his strongest functions. My problem with him being an INTP is exactly that mid-life crisis, it just screams unconscious Ni. Also, throughout his career he had a habit of emphasizing the strictly empirical basis of his ideas via his clinical practice. In contrast to an INTP scientist like Einstein, who theorized based on a few bits of evidence, an ISTP scientist like Jung tends to get a bunch of data first and then theorize based on that data.
    Autistic INFP


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    You cannot get directly to the inferior function from the superior, it must always be via the auxiliary function.
    Hmm, indeed, interesting. Yes, I have felt that it's through aux Ne that my Te is most engaged. Ne spins out a bunch of possibilities, Te sorts through them with efficiency to what promises utility. It's the Fi that weighs objection or validation, that does the sifting. And I would say, Fi starts the chain through a feeling-tone response, a gut feeling, a "something has to be done about this" sense. The Fi is not "the rubber that meets the road" function, but it is one that helps get the wheels rolling. Some problem will gain my attention and it's this ability to problem-solve on the fly that results. Otherwise, Te lies dormant and asleep.

    ---

    There are quite a few threads here that have explored Jung's possible type. The best arguments favor INTx. When I watch videos of him, I lean more to INTP. He does not feel like an Ni dom.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    When people see some things as good,
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    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Okay, so if I'm getting this, the answer to "is it widely accepted that Jung was Ni-tert?" is no and no one really knows what MBTI type he'd have been or even what his dominant cognitive function was, but people do try to figure it out in various ways and have come to various conclusions. Am I understanding this correctly?
    Jung mentions early on in Psychological Types that he was a Ti-Dom and says that is why he originally wrongly assumed that all introverts were T and all extraverts were F. So he was either an INTP or an ISTP.
    Autistic INFP


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Ni doesn't exist. Sorry.
    But continue with your attempt at self awareness. eventually you'll outgrow self obsession, and typology will fall away naturally.
    Shhhhh! We're trying to keep an air of mystique here and you're ruining it!


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    Si doms are crazies too. They can become insane believing that the internal sense impression is more real than the object, and can be pushed around until they snap in their world of aesthetic arrangements where the too high is brought lower and the too low higher. This is why an SJ of an unknown capacity can have hilarious or bizarre standards they insist are correct which make no logical sense. I mean they think the symbol is actually the thing.

    Si doms and Ni doms are both delightful creatures in their mystifying individual perceptions of things. The Ni dom the voice crying in the wilderness and the Si dom the astute artist.

    Anyway all perceiving dominants are irrational.

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