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  1. #51
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Iron Giant View Post
    So, Ni-doms, can you give examples from your experience that reflects or contradicts Jung's analysis? Do you think you see things very deeply, but in ways that feel impossible to express, and maybe make no practical sense once they're out in the open?
    I am Ni aux, but a lot of what comes out of my mouth is way too abstact for others. It's too 1,5,7,10, then bam, conclusion....Where most people need to go through 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 to get to 10 and then the conclusion.

    I can see something finished before anyone else can. If they have not had the real life experience to prove that it will work, they don't believe me. It's a matter of preference in the end though.

    Cause I am willing to sacrifice the now, for the later. Big time. Where others prefer not to do that. That's where most of my goals sound unmanageable to others. But not to me, cause the long term vision is so much stronger than short term.

    I think even on here, at TypoC, my posts are misconstrued. (Mostly cause I'm always in a rush but...)

    I do try to clarify my ideas with examples though. That is the most practical way that I can explain anything, so that everyone's on the same page.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I am Ni aux, but a lot of what comes out of my mouth is way too abstact for others. It's too 1,5,7,10, then bam, conclusion....Where most people need to go through 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 to get to 10 and then the conclusion.

    I can see something finished before anyone else can. If they have not had the real life experience to prove that it will work, they don't believe me. It's a matter of preference in the end though.

    Cause I am willing to sacrifice the now, for the later. Big time. Where others prefer not to do that. That's where most of my goals sound unmanageable to others. But not to me, cause the long term vision is so much stronger than short term.

    I think even on here, at TypoC, my posts are miscontrued. (Mostly cause I'm always in a rush but...)

    I do try to clarify my ideas with examples though. That is the most practical way that I can explain anything so that everyone's on the same page.
    same things happens to me an NI is pretty far down on functions I use. so I'm not sure if that's an ni thing
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #53
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I feel like Ni doms and auxs are good at doing math unconsciously and that might be what might make the difference between Ni and Ne. For instance, if someone tells me to add 17 + 28 I immediately have 45 pop into my head without having to do the math consciously. Of course, sometimes the unconscious can be wrong, and that sucks sometimes, but it's fairly efficient.

  4. #54
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Jung's description of rational and irrational types does not really correlate to MBTI J/P for introverts.
    I understand that's the official MBTI position, which was Myers' position because it went hand in hand with her minority view that Jung believed introverts' auxiliary function would be extraverted (and vice versa). For more from me on that issue, see this follow-up post.

    As I said, it's my view, based partly on Jung's descriptions of rational and irrational types, that when Jung met the kind of people who would test J on the MBTI, he viewed them as rational types regardless of whether they were introverts or extraverts. So, if he was dealing with an introverted woman with N and F preferences who came across as a "rational type," (i.e., J-ish), Jung would have said, aha, her F (judging) preference is her dominant one and N is her auxiliary (and her functions are Fi-Ni-Se-Te).

  5. #55
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    I understand that's the official MBTI position, which was Myers' position because it went hand in hand with her minority view that Jung believed introverts' auxiliary function would be extraverted (and vice versa). For more from me on that issue, see this follow-up post.

    As I said, it's my view, based partly on Jung's descriptions of rational and irrational types, that when Jung met the kind of people who would test J on the MBTI, he viewed them as rational types regardless of whether they were introverts or extroverts. So, if he was dealing with an introverted woman with N and F preferences who came across as a "rational type," (i.e., J-ish), Jung would have said, aha, her F (judging) preference is her dominant one and N is her auxiliary (and her functions are Fi-Ni-Se-Te).
    Unfortunately, I can only find chapter 8 online, and Psychological Types seems surprisingly hard for me to come by. Nevertheless, I find your reasoning hard to follow.

    You seem to be arguing that the auxiliary function changes orientation as it becomes more conscious (and note that Jung states that this is a "relatively unconscious" function), and thus the intuition becomes introverted, so the intuition of an INTP is really introverted intuition. This cannot be reconciled with your earlier insinuation that INTPs are Ni dominants, since what you speak of refers to the attitude of an auxiliary function, and the method you used to claim that INTPs have introverted intution was regarding intuiton as an axuillary function. This implies that Thinking is the dominant function.


    Answer this: Would an Introverted Thinker be display the same standards of rationality towards the object, or the external world as an Extraverted Thinker? The only chapter from Jung on this I have been able to read suggests that this would not be the case. Apparently, everything else Jung wrote is in contradiction to the one chapter where he tried to actually articulate this, but I basically have to take your word for it since this book is really hard to find in its entirety.
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  6. #56
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    @reckful

    Interesting post, some of it does make sense. A few comments though... and some questions. As below.


    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Jung viewed the conflicting aspects of extraversion and introversion as so fundamentally opposed that it was ultimately impossible to truly reconcile them in terms of anything in the nature of conscious reasoning
    Bull-shit. Why on earth no one ever seems to consider the alternative: one moment you are like this, another moment you are like that. The two moments do not have to be connected to each other. They can be completely disconnected, relating to completely different circumstances, situations, attitudes. Thus, one can be introverted in one moment and extraverted in another. (I don't imply that these two moments are directly after each other, of course)

    What do you know of that would make this switching impossible? I do not see anything that would make it impossible.

    I will give some examples of what I mean. St. Augustine: "I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel it."
    Oh lol according to that I am an introvert. Yet according to other criteria I am an extravert.



    So... as a final note, and to avoid any misunderstanding, Ti-Ni-Se-Fe is not the functions model I subscribe to, because I don't subscribe to any functions model. As I noted at the start of this post, I think Myers was correct to essentially abandon the functions in favor of the dichotomies
    Did she really? Show me evidence?! I can show you evidence of the opposite: http://myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-perso...type-dynamics/

    This, on the official MBTI site, explicitly and clearly deals with functions. How is that "abandoned"? Maybe more focus on the dichotomies, sure, but "abandoned" is a strong word. No?

    Note I did check the intjforum link but it's just guesses of yours, not hard evidence like the link above.


    Jung has said that the hardest thing to understand is not your opposite type — if you have introverted feeling it is very difficult to understand an extraverted thinking type — but the same functional type with the other attitude! It would be most difficult for an introverted feeling type to understand an extraverted feeling type. There one feels that one does not know how the wheels go round in that person's head.
    As for the bolded, that's an argument that could be applied to any other function. After all, every function is different from the other one. What substantiates this claim then that the opposite attitude of the same function is the hardest to understand? I don't see any basis to this claim.


    Ohh and as for Jung's type yeah Ti-Ni makes sense I can see quite some people online are Ti-Ni or Ni-Ti and I guess there is nothing that excludes that someone's auxiliary is the same as the dominant, HOWEVER, also nothing excludes that someone's auxiliary is the opposite to the dominant, so someone else can be Ti-Ne instead of Ti-Ni.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    You seem to be arguing that the auxiliary function changes orientation as it becomes more conscious (and note that Jung states that this is a "relatively unconscious" function), and thus the intuition becomes introverted, so the intuition of an INTP is really introverted intuition. This cannot be reconciled with your earlier insinuation that INTPs are Ni dominants, since what you speak of refers to the attitude of an auxiliary function, and the method you used to claim that INTPs have introverted intution was regarding intuiton as an axuillary function. This implies that Thinking is the dominant function.
    Hmm interesting point... or INTP could be either TiNi or NiTi, just the four letters of INTP isn't going to tell you that


    Answer this: Would an Introverted Thinker be display the same standards of rationality towards the object, or the external world as an Extraverted Thinker? The only chapter from Jung on this I have been able to read suggests that this would not be the case. Apparently, everything else Jung wrote is in contradiction to the one chapter where he tried to actually articulate this, but I basically have to take your word for it since this book is really hard to find in its entirety.
    Wouldn't it be Fe?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I feel like Ni doms and auxs are good at doing math unconsciously and that might be what might make the difference between Ni and Ne. For instance, if someone tells me to add 17 + 28 I immediately have 45 pop into my head without having to do the math consciously. Of course, sometimes the unconscious can be wrong, and that sucks sometimes, but it's fairly efficient.
    I'm good at doing math intuitively yes... the 17 + 28 example, why's that Ni though?

    I usually don't see my unconscious go wrong with math and logical structures in general

    Because math is pure logic I always thought that this was just a well-ingrained Ti for me. Especially because this math intuition has to comply with logical rules, can't and mustn't go outside the bounds of logic.

    Yes I do sometimes have trouble differentiating between Ti and Ni.

    What do you think about it being possibly Ti?

  9. #59
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I'm good at doing math intuitively yes... the 17 + 28 example, why's that Ni though?

    I usually don't see my unconscious go wrong with math and logical structures in general

    Because math is pure logic I always thought that this was just a well-ingrained Ti for me. Especially because this math intuition has to comply with logical rules, can't and mustn't go outside the bounds of logic.

    Yes I do sometimes have trouble differentiating between Ti and Ni.

    What do you think about it being possibly Ti?
    It's entirely possible for it to be Ti, I was merely adding a suggestion. Ni is generally perceived (heh) to be the most unconscious and mysterious function that sees the outcome of scenarios, so many people and myself included have hypothesized that Ni is the cause of unconsciously solving a math problem. You would perceive the problem, 17 + 28, but then instantly have the word or image (depending on your thinking style) of the number 45, completely skipping the decision making/judging function to solve the problem logically or step-by-step. It's sort of like looking at 17 + 28 and interpreting it as 45 without any forethought.

    Now what would be extremely interesting would be to see how this unconscious math plays out in a type with both Ti and Ni, specifically the ISTP and the INFJ in a dom-tert loop.

  10. #60
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    @valaki

    A lot of the comments and questions in your post make it sound like you're under the impression that I was endorsing most or all of the Jung stuff (and von Franz stuff) I quoted, but I noted that that is decidedly not the case in the last spoiler at the end of my two-part post. I'm not really a functions guy at all.

    You ask for "evidence" that Myers and the official MBTI folks have essentially centered their typology around the dichotomies while mostly just giving what I call "lip service" to the Jungian functions, and I describe a lot of "evidence" for that in that long INTJforum post I linked to. There's really no way all the stuff I describe there — all the way from Gifts Differing through the official MBTI Manuals through the more recent "Step II" personality reports — is consistent with the idea that the MBTI establishment views the cognitive functions as anything remotely approaching the main event when it comes to your MBTI personality. The incredibly sketchy descriptions of type dynamics and the eight functions that you find at the myersbriggs.org site is typical of the lip service I'm talking about. As noted in my linked post, Myers thought the most meaningful division of the 16 types into subgroups was the foursome of NF, NT, SF and ST — each of which consists of four types with four different dominant functions. Both Myers and her official MBTI successors have been actively involved in hundreds of studies over the years, almost all of which have studied and reported the relevant correlations in terms of the dichotomies — and non-function-related combinations like NT and NF — rather than in terms of the cognitive functions.

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