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  1. #11
    The Iron Giant
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    What Jung is saying in this passage is that his eight portraits are artifically "pure" portraits in the sense of leaving out the "individual features" that tend to distinguish, say, one Ni-dom from another Ni-dom —and, most notably, an Ni-dom with a T-aux from an Ni-dom with an F-aux. But when it comes to the characteristics that derive from Ni, and will therefore tend to found in all Ni-doms, Jung says that his portraits concentrate on "the common and therefore typical features" of the type. So it makes no sense to claim that the features Jung described as "common" and "typical" were features he thought would only show up in extreme or "unhealthy" cases.
    That was a great post, thanks for this. I'm inclined to agree. I often find myself, when talking about Jung, sliding backward and sideways into other people's Internet interpretations of what I've read in the Psychological Types text.

    I'll add to those who are interested that one of the purposes behind Socionics is to better represent Jung's concepts into a more modular system along the lines of MBTI, correcting for those misinterpretations (of Jung's ideas) in terms of function attitude that the Instrument introduced.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Iron Giant View Post
    Great stuff. This is where I tripped myself up... I omitted the aux-function dynamic in drawing that divide. Between Ti-doms and Ni-doms then, we'd draw a distinction on where their perception is oriented, and how that presents to others. It becomes easier to explain when we grind it down further and are specific with what the aux function would be... I would expect people would be more interested to hear the differences between INTP and INTJ, then INFP and INFJ. I think it's fair to say the INxP's Pe means they're making judgments on the object or external world (through Ne or Se) while the INxJ's Pe is focused inward and would manifest more in a "between the lines" or "behind the scenes" kind of a way.

    What do you think?

    I'm working on conceiving a concrete example of an INTP and an INTJ addressing a common, real-world issue in different ways.
    I'm a concrete example, assuming you're not literally talking about concrete here.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #13
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Iron Giant View Post
    To summarize, he says Ni-doms normally are not concerned with the moral implications of what they've drawn as a "mystical dreamer and seer," and when they are, they're generally too removed from the reality of the object cognitively to act on this. In other words, the Ni dom may come to understand the deep principles underlying reality but lacks the ability to connect these to real world events or express the importance of this understanding, so cannot act upon these practically. This would be, as far as I'm concerned, an example of how Jung saw Ni doms as the superstitious ones (crying in the wilderness... picture the disheveled guy holding a "the world is ending" sign), though I certainly see similar conclusions about detachment from the object in his text about Si doms. Both Si doms and Ni doms are acting upon an imagined reality due to the introverted attitude of their perception...

    Disclaimer: Jung's focus was on the deeply troubled people who he saw in his practice, so his type descriptions are all about people who are varying levels of unhealthy. Still, I agree with Jung's assessment of Ni and Si, and think they are structurally valuable at levels Briggs-Myers' revisions don't address in Gifts Differing.

    So, Ni-doms, can you give examples from your experience that reflects or contradicts Jung's analysis? Do you think you see things very deeply, but in ways that feel impossible to express, and maybe make no practical sense once they're out in the open?


    I feel like I relate to the mystical dreamer and seer as also the fantastical crank and artist. When I am in a conversation, I usually fade out and try to track my thoughts in parallel to see if I can predict where the end would be. Sometimes with a disastrous outcome, because it offshoots without any concrete reality checks. I like to delve into deep thought most of the time. Hmmm part of it, is to slice a potato as thin as possible to see if the next slice is where you thought it would be in size and shape. Hunting for contradictions.

    As for the specifics about this part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'.
    I think this happens when information was presented as a negative and no alternative was presented at the time as the absolute. Leaving his mind to fill in the blanks. Happened to me as I entered high school.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Iron Giant View Post
    Great stuff. This is where I tripped myself up... I omitted the aux-function dynamic in drawing that divide. Between Ti-doms and Ni-doms then, we'd draw a distinction on where their perception is oriented, and how that presents to others. It becomes easier to explain when we grind it down further and are specific with what the aux function would be... I would expect people would be more interested to hear the differences between INTP and INTJ, then INFP and INFJ. I think it's fair to say the INxP's Pe means they're making judgments on the object or external world (through Ne or Se) while the INxJ's Pe is focused inward and would manifest more in a "between the lines" or "behind the scenes" kind of a way.

    What do you think?

    I'm working on conceiving a concrete example of an INTP and an INTJ addressing a common, real-world issue in different ways.
    Isn't that Pe actually Pi?

  4. #14
    The Iron Giant
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Isn't that Pe actually Pi?
    Yes, that was a typo. I'll fix it if I can. Thanks!

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    In reality, Ni-dom and Ti-dom debating a concrete topic look very, very different.

    Ni-dom makes a bizarre claim.
    Ti-dom knocks it down logically.
    Ni-dom doesn't see his or her claim as "bizarre," but sees logic as a less important than 'reality.'
    Ti-dom gets annoyed and starts badgering Ni-dom.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Ti reaction to Ni picture:

    Ni - "The myths are an storehouse of infinite knowledge. They speak of the Midgard Serpent lying at the bottom of the see. He encircles the globe and when he moved great earth trembles cause terrible convulsions. Most believe this is just a tale, but the ancient knew of his existence at the bottom of the oceans. Now, with modern technology, we can see for ourselves that the Myths were true--he does exist. But how did primitive Norsemen know of this great belt of fissions at the bottom of the oceans? Perhaps they were not primitive as most people think they were? Did they have knowledge passed down to them from thousands of years earlier, in a time when their ancestors had built an advance civilization, more advance than ours' today? But when it collapsed, their knowledge were encoded in Myths passed down from generation to generation? Take a look at the maps once more and think about it."


    Ti - "It is funny and might be an interpretation of the myth into modern cosmology we can use today, but the thing about “advance civilization, more advance than ours' today” are at best silly and a little insulting to our ancestors, who did amazing things with the technology available to them. Notice that the map is manipulated. The ridges at the west coast of Greenland are very small and not active anymore and in the pacific there is no ridge along the Californian coast and along Aleutian Islands. If they decided to take island arcs at destructive plate boundaries, then there are plenty of more places that need to be included in the serpent.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    My own response to this: Someone is taking this picture seriously enough to analyze? LOL.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    For me, as a Ti-dom (INTP or INTj, depending on which theory you masturbate to), a response would depend on the context. I consider my audience. With an Ni-dom, especially one who has a sense of humor, I would deflect the whole thing into the realm of levity - because that's where it logically belongs, and because I like getting along with my Ni friends who amuse me with their antics
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Ti reaction to Ni picture
    My reaction... Wtf, such biased illogical thinking full of baseless assumptions and logical jumps.

    Sure you could imagine it as a possibility but exactly just how unlikely it would be?

    I will give you a more plausible alternative, say the Norsemen just tried to explain some local earthquake with this myth. It's easy to see that the source of an earthquake is somewhere "below". Not hard to make up a myth like that one from that.

    Also, a serpent-like drawing on a map of the globe isn't a serpent. It's simply a serpent-shaped drawing, no more no less.

    PS: I didn't know that the serpent wasn't even drawn right if destructive plate boundaries are all taken into account, though it may not be too relevant, could be dismissed as just nitpicking...

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    My reaction... Wtf, such biased illogical thinking full of baseless assumptions and logical jumps.

    Sure you could imagine it as a possibility
    That's the point: imagination!

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    but exactly just how unlikely it would be?

    I will give you a more plausible alternative, say the Norsemen just tried to explain some local earthquake with this myth. It's easy to see that the source of an earthquake is somewhere "below". Not hard to make up a myth like that one from that.

    Also, a serpent-like drawing on a map of the globe isn't a serpent. It's simply a serpent-shaped drawing, no more no less.

    PS: I didn't know that the serpent wasn't even drawn right if destructive plate boundaries are all taken into account, though it may not be too relevant, could be dismissed as just nitpicking...
    If you can't understand it, then I can't explain it!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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