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  1. #11
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @Chanaynay

    Fwiw, so far, I ve come to the preliminary conclusion right now that Fe(Ni) might be the answer. Yup. Fe-ing the povs thrown in the mix and determining which pov takes precedence in this particular situation to the greater good and the best outcome for those involved. And making sure that all povs get their moment in the sun, of course - including ours
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #12
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    My personal preference is to be in a designated position of expertise while encouraging other people and watching them flourish. I don't think I would call myself a "dominant" person - I'm more of a niche type. I like having my own specialty where I am competent and not vying with others. I wouldn't use the words "bow down", but I do expect others to leave room for the possibility that I may be competent.

    I do understand that sometimes it's hard to be patient when you know you're competent at something and could get it done more easily, especially if there are time or other resource pressures in play. That said, at least personally, my skills tend to be fairly holistic, and usually I can easily flow to another task or just keep an eye on the overall process (an aptitude which I think is part of my skillset, itself). I try to reorganize, compromise, and collaborate with others to create the best combination of task productivity and enjoyment. I do get more directive and delegate in urgent situations, regardless of where I am in the power structure. It seems like people are often open to directives if they are considerate and reasonable. I feel like in situations where I know what I'm doing, I can generally take the reins and I've encountered very little resistance to or negative feedback from that.

    In my own personal thought process, I think I tend to perceive both my and others' skills more in terms of intrapersonal wellness instead of interpersonal competition. In my yoga classes, our teachers will sometimes discuss how it can be tempting to look at others and compare their abilities to ours - whether they can push deeper into adho mukha svanasana, whether they are more steady in garudasana. We make the mistake of thinking it's somehow related to our self-worth, but worth is inherent in each person and there is no happiness in attempting to rank personal worth. Additionally, skills ebb and flow with external constraints. To me it seems most important whether people are are getting enjoyment out of exercising their skills and whether they are using them to create health, happiness, and wholeness in themselves and others.

    As for my facade... I think a lot of mine has to do with a general impression of competence. I don't mind being underestimated, but I really don't like being dismissed. I work to preserve my image so that I will not lose opportunity. In relation to type, I think that being an NP makes me more of the "individual expert" type, and being an FP makes me especially attuned to intrapersonal development. The way it seems to me inside my mind, and how I could potentially relate it to functions, would be this: While I expect others to leave the possibility (Ne) that I could be very good, I expect them to judge for themselves (Fi) rather than expecting them to submit to me. I always have the option to demonstrate my competence, whether that means asserting my abilities (Te) or proving my credentials (Si). What aggravates me most is being written off before having been given opportunity, which seems fairly Ne.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    So I had a conversation with @Hypatia the other night, as well as a few others. There is a theory I'm investigating, and I'd like everyone to contribute their own thoughts on the matter.

    Basically its like this. I'm an ESTP. my primary function is Se. I'm an experienced martial artist, and if you put me in a group of other martial artists at a tournament, I would be able to look at each person and read their body language. I can tell you, before a match begins, who is going to win and who is going to lose.

    However, sometimes I can't. When this happens, I think the person is hiding something from me. Either they have a trick up their sleeve they aren't telling me about, or they're lying, or hiding something else.

    In fact, as a dominant extroverted sensor, I EXPECT everyone to submit to my Se. In a room full of martial artists, if I feel that I am the best one there after taking a look at everyone around me, I EXPECT everyone to treat me as such. If they don't, it means they're either better than me, or lying (and therefore untrustworthy).

    In recent events, I've been building a gym. I am the most experienced person there working construction. My business partner is an ENFJ.

    Everyone comes up to me and asks me how to do x y z, and I give them a quick lesson. I go around teaching everyone how to read rulers, how to cut straight lines with a skillsaw, etc. The ENFJ, however, does not ask for help. He is the only person in the room unwilling to admit his lack of experience or skill to me (for example, he once asked me how to read a ruler). As a result, my trust in him begins to dwindle.

    I question him on why he acts like he knows what he's doing, when he doesn't. Suddenly he's shocked to realize I know that he isn't what he says he is.

    We've had arguments over arguments. He's in charge of the gym when I'm not around, and I have no intention of undercutting his authority or making him look bad, so I talk to him in private.

    As I spoke to hypatia, she mentioned that its possible that he values his facade of strength and competence. Its going to be very hard for me to get him to open up to me on this subject and actually admit that he needs my competence to survive. But at the same time, he constantly tries to get me to drop my guard and admit that I need him as well. Our communication issue is one of 2 dominant types expecting the other to submit to the others' strong points, even though they aren't something we necessarily completely value in life. He does me favors and expects me express my appreciation to him, but I never do, and it frustrates him. Likewise, I put him into difficult tasks and he gets very frustrated because he doesn't want to let go of his facade, but at the same time needs my guidance in these situations. We've had some issues of trust in this regard. I don't admit, verbally, my appreciation for him when he asks for it, and he doesn't admit my superior experience.

    So I begin to wonder, I, as well as most every other human, have some kind of facade that I maintain, that is important to me.

    I'm still figuring out what my facade is. Typology tells me what to think, but I'd rather figure it out for myself. I know I have a facade of some kind though. He has made me aware of it. Perhaps I feel great fear of betrayal, and he knows he's able to protect me from that and wants me to admit it, when I don't fully realize that's my issue.

    So, my question is: do other types expect everyone to bow down to their dominant function? Is this something ALL personalities share? or is it more complicated than that? Is this only a trait of dominant personalities, or do we all expect it in some way?

    IE: ESTJs expect to be recognized for their experience (YOU NEED MY EXCELLENCE), ENTJs expect to be recognized for their foresight (YOU NEED MY GUIDANCE), ESTPs expect to be recognized for their strength (YOU NEED MY STRENGTH), ENFJs expect to be recognized for their charisma and helpfulness (YOU NEED MY SOCIAL PROTECTION)

    Thoughts?
    Alright I have quite a few thoughts after reading that post.

    The illogical attempts - bordering on paranoia - at reading between lines you are talking so much about in this post is not relevant to MBTI, IMO. As someone else already said, this kind of vanity is also not MBTI related, at best Enneagram 3 related if we must connect it to typology.

    Oh another thing. Typology does not "tell you what to think". What crazy idea is that? It's just a model of reality, not reality itself. I also think you have a lot of projections while using typology in a really twisted way to justify whatever wishful thinking. So, again, I say, drop this crazy dependence on typology and pay more attention to reality itself. I'm sorry, this is my opinion.


    More in detail about my above opinion: it's probably just me but I would not be so quick trying to read between the lines without knowing that much about the other person. I can imagine the ENFJ having totally different motivations than you imagine and I don't at all understand why you associate his behaviour with a trust issue.

    More than that, I don't get the logic behind you not being able to predict if you will win a match or not and connecting that to trust issues, e.g. hiding shit, lying about shit. How on earth are the two connected?!? That is, your ability to predict who's the winning one, and the fact that someone's hiding something/lying?

    Also just because you feel you're the best one, you can't assume that everyone else thinks the same, and if they do not, it doesn't mean they are lying and untrustworthy. I seriously don't get the logic here.

    I also do not understand why you need everyone to say to you that they need your so called guidance. Trust me on this one, if you met me, you might as well wait forever before I'd feel like I need to be "guided" by you - this is not personal, I just don't feel this way in general about anyone.

    The point is, I don't think I'm the only one who'd feel this way. Things just aren't as simple as that in life. Most people are more independent than you apparently assume just because typology told you so. So get a grip on reality.



    Anyhow, about your original question. That question is still interesting. I guess I'm not sure about my dominant function but it's an interesting idea to try and define it by this method.

    First, I don't really expect that much to be recognized for whatever. It's cool to an extent, but only to an extent.

    For me it's only Ti that I expect others to sort of "bown down to", if that's even the right expression for it, in terms of my willingness to argue anything and expecting others to treat arguments the same way I do, via a logical impersonal attitude. Well I don't actually get upset if someone doesn't treat arguments in the same way as I do, I'm fine anyhow *shrug* So it's not an actual expectation for others to do so. And I don't expect others to recognize me for having great Ti or whatever.

    Hmm well another thing, I also like to be better than others in many things, both physical and mental stuff, but that's just general competitiveness. I guess if you really want, you can ascribe that to Se but I think it's also possible to associate it with Te or with Enneagram motivations. It's just too generic in the way I stated how I am. I still don't expect others to shower compliments on me. I'm satisfied by just having the thing itself, e.g. having won in something. Again, I don't expect to be recognized for great Se or whatever other function :p.


    PS. Cool about building that gym room, it is your own business project I take it?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    My personal preference is to be in a designated position of expertise while encouraging other people and watching them flourish. I don't think I would call myself a "dominant" person - I'm more of a niche type. I like having my own specialty where I am competent and not vying with others. I wouldn't use the words "bow down", but I do expect others to leave room for the possibility that I may be competent.

    I do understand that sometimes it's hard to be patient when you know you're competent at something and could get it done more easily, especially if there are time or other resource pressures in play. That said, at least personally, my skills tend to be fairly holistic, and usually I can easily flow to another task or just keep an eye on the overall process (an aptitude which I think is part of my skillset, itself). I try to reorganize, compromise, and collaborate with others to create the best combination of task productivity and enjoyment. I do get more directive and delegate in urgent situations, regardless of where I am in the power structure. It seems like people are often open to directives if they are considerate and reasonable. I feel like in situations where I know what I'm doing, I can generally take the reins and I've encountered very little resistance to or negative feedback from that.

    In my own personal thought process, I think I tend to perceive both my and others' skills more in terms of intrapersonal wellness instead of interpersonal competition. In my yoga classes, our teachers will sometimes discuss how it can be tempting to look at others and compare their abilities to ours - whether they can push deeper into adho mukha svanasana, whether they are more steady in garudasana. We make the mistake of thinking it's somehow related to our self-worth, but worth is inherent in each person and there is no happiness in attempting to rank personal worth. Additionally, skills ebb and flow with external constraints. To me it seems most important whether people are are getting enjoyment out of exercising their skills and whether they are using them to create health, happiness, and wholeness in themselves and others.

    As for my facade... I think a lot of mine has to do with a general impression of competence. I don't mind being underestimated, but I really don't like being dismissed. I work to preserve my image so that I will not lose opportunity. In relation to type, I think that being an NP makes me more of the "individual expert" type, and being an FP makes me especially attuned to intrapersonal development. So while I expect others to leave the possibility (Ne) that I could be very good, I expect them to judge for themselves (Fi) rather than expecting them to submit to me. I always have the option to demonstrate my competence, whether that means asserting my abilities (Te) or proving my credentials (Si). What aggravates me most is being written off before having been given opportunity, which seems fairly Ne.
    Interesting, you saying it's Ne that you don't like being written off. I also don't like it. Asserting abilities, hm, apparently OP thinks it's Se not Te.

    Yeah, I don't think these generic things can be so strongly associated with just one single function. So goddammit. ;P

    Otherwise I really liked your post, it was interesting and deep. Thanks.

  5. #15
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    Basically its like this. I'm an ESTP. my primary function is Se. I'm an experienced martial artist, and if you put me in a group of other martial artists at a tournament, I would be able to look at each person and read their body language. I can tell you, before a match begins, who is going to win and who is going to lose.

    However, sometimes I can't. When this happens, I think the person is hiding something from me. Either they have a trick up their sleeve they aren't telling me about, or they're lying, or hiding something else.
    This is something I really find is a point of conflict between myself and Se doms, especially ESTP's, that assured notion of being correct because the surface elements tell you all you need to know.

    Except there is always more beneath a surface, always more to inspect, as you said yourself "sometimes I can't". Exactly, sometimes Se DOESN'T present the entire tale to the visual story. And as for hiding, I'm not sure that's entirely fair, there are people out there who are dishonest in that manner, but just because someone doesn't lay out their entire hand doesn't mean they are doing it deliberately.

    Some people are just naturally more private. Also in a physical setting and especially something like a martial art, isn't it part of someones ability to analyse your opponent through fighting with them? I suppose if it were me I would try to conceal my abilities, ( if I had any), as it would give an advantage in something like martial arts, but to me that's just being cautious.

    Do you show off your best moves? In life?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  6. #16
    Member hornet's Avatar
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    ENFJs have tert Se, it is all part of this thing called the hidden agenda in socionics.
    To put it simple, you are overconfident on this level, fooling yourself, but not others.

  7. #17
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    your thought process is difficult for me to understand. just this sense of needing to be the best. almost worshiped for it. i don't think that's doing you any favors. i understand tho that almost visceral reaction to not give fe what it wants. i think i have that too. my fi just rejects it.

    but i think the idea is a simple one. that most people like to be appreciated for their strengths. i do...i think most people do sure of course. why wouldn't they?

    i don't know about everyone having a facade. perhaps. most people have insecurities and i'd imagine one's facade may be an attempt to shield those.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #18
    Member hornet's Avatar
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    Another thing that I thought about, since ENFJs and ESTPS are fairly dramatic types, there is a real gap in being straight with each other.
    There is this need to front to keep everyone else guessing, or else there is real danger of losing status in the group.
    So all relations between them become this soap opera of lies and deception to try to shield from the others attempt to outmanouver you.
    ESTPs that are confrontational as well will surely dial up the drama veil to unheard of levels.
    When the person in addition can't accurately understand their proficiency on the Se level,
    you will likely have a great merry go round of intrigue. But for Fe types this is probably just rewarding.

  9. #19
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Interesting, you saying it's Ne that you don't like being written off. I also don't like it. Asserting abilities, hm, apparently OP thinks it's Se not Te.

    Yeah, I don't think these generic things can be so strongly associated with just one single function. So goddammit. ;P

    Otherwise I really liked your post, it was interesting and deep. Thanks.
    Thank you

    I don't really think they can be associated with one either, not as a generalized system, but for me personally, those are the function associations I would make. I don't really see Ne directly translating into a certain skill as much as I see it imbued in many things... certainly both a Ne and Se dom could dislike something for similar reasons because they share similarities as Pe functions. And I am saying that with the grain of salt that "Ne" is just a conceptual term for a particular thought process which may or may not be very well or consistently represented in the mind.

  10. #20
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post

    IE: ESTJs expect to be recognized for their experience (YOU NEED MY EXCELLENCE), ENTJs expect to be recognized for their foresight (YOU NEED MY GUIDANCE), ESTPs expect to be recognized for their strength (YOU NEED MY STRENGTH), ENFJs expect to be recognized for their charisma and helpfulness (YOU NEED MY SOCIAL PROTECTION)
    I have definitely found myself slighted when people overlook the "usefulness" of me Fe. I often expect people to appreciate my helpfulness and practicality.

    Then I remember that not everyone values those things and I should just enjoy spending time with my friends.
    Friends, waffles, work

    "The problem is, when you depend on a substitute for love, you can never get enough" - Louis Cozolino

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