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  1. #21
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Ti and Fi are supposed to be linked with individualism. I know that INFJ is one. Who else?
    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    People with a weak sense of self. They are empty inside. They have to look to outside sources to define them. Tend to turn to things like religion. Susceptible to group think or cult mentalities.
    While I agree that INFJs can have a tendency to put others’ needs ahead of their own and are perhaps one of the types most vulnerable to having poor boundaries, that doesn't really translate directly into “empty inside” or “susceptible to group think” and the like. Once our “something is rotten in Denver” instinct kicks in, it’s pretty iron-clad and we become amazingly impervious to a source that has demonstrated the tendency to overstep appropriate boundaries. [We often don’t even know why we have to write someone off- it’s often just an abstract and remarkably strong visceral impulse to ignore someone.]

    “They are empty inside. They have to look to outside sources to define them.” –is pretty much the definition of narcissism. When there’s no empathy/compassion for one’s self or others- people with this inner scarcity flee to external validation for the rush/high of social acceptance as a substitute for self acceptance. But because they are empty inside (lack compassion) they see others as being empty inside too, as being little more than objects to give them feelings of worth.

    So you need to be more specific with what you’re asking, I guess is my point. Having poor boundaries and putting others’ needs ahead of one’s own (to one’s own detriment) does not mean someone is “empty inside”. The people who need to impose ‘group think’- who feel entitled to control what others’ opinions are (usually through manipulation, often without realizing they’re doing it), and who lack appropriate boundaries- are actually the ones who are “empty inside” and they need external validation to fill the hole.

    Narcissists are actually drawn to people with weak boundaries precisely for this reason- it’s easier to convince them to give and give and give validation without actually returning it.

    I’m really not sure how to answer which type has the most issues with identity/boundaries because each type has its own issues. But I think Fe doms are just as inclined to end up on the “needing to overstep boundaries and control others’ perception to fill emptiness inside” end of the spectrum as they are to end up on the side of ignoring their own needs to see to someone else’s. It’s a craps shoot.


    eta: And does anyone else think it's funny that someone with a Gollum avi started this thread?
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 01-03-2014 at 05:08 AM. Reason: fix typo
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  2. #22
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    There is also the case of Borderline PD, wherein an individual may feel much compassion for others but also feel a lack of consistent internal identity.

  3. #23
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Types that don't find a lot of common ground with society have problems with identity. I'd say INPs are particularly susceptible. They soon realize that what feels natural to them is not well-regarded in the mainstream, yet they wish to be a part of the mainstream. As such they decide to try to fake it and try on different personalities a lot. It's easy to get lost and forget who you are when you spend 90% of your energy just trying to fit in constantly.
    I agree with this. INFPs are similar, in this respect. I would say that I think it is a common thing for INTPs to be much less individualistic than they think they are. And yes, this includes the 5w4s. But, having said that, I think the quote below is also important.

    I am less certain about ISTPs, but I do chalk part of that up to inferior Fe, so I am inclined to think that they may have that too on some level.

    I also don't know that I give that much of a fuck about what I wear to have a strong enough attachment to it that I feel like I would be betraying myself for changing it. Given this, I might as well wear what I think other people would think would look good. Of course, that depends on the people and the situation.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #24
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    I think a distinction needs to be made on whether we are talking about "identity" or "definition" (or perhaps "internal identity" or "external identity") as people seem to be lumping everything under one heading.

    I would classify the former as "those who know who or what they are in spirit" but who don't necessarily have a place anywhere/don't fit into the jigsaw puzzle of greater society. These would be Ji-doms/IxxP - A structured inner world backed up with internal focus (abstract knowledge of self due to identification with strong internal standard) but weak concrete, real-world sense of definition. Using this formula Ji-inferior would have a weak sense of internal identity (ExxJ).

    The latter would be classified as having a place in the world/navigating it to achieve an outcome/identifying with society's view or opinion of their beliefs/achievement/status but possessing a weak sense of identity outside of this (usually due to an unstructed inner world) and probably a fear or difficulty with introspecting or self-reflecting. ExxJ would excel at this whilst IxxP would be weak at this.

    ExxP and IxxJ would be in the middle. ExxPs have a structured inner world if they to stop to reference it and do have the potential to get out there and make a name for themselves whilst IxxJs do have a degree of structure in their inner world and can be quite competent with real world endeavours if they assert themselves.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I think a distinction needs to be made on whether we are talking about "identity" or "definition" (or perhaps "internal identity" or "external identity") as people seem to be lumping everything under one heading
    I think each type just has a different idea of what their identity is.

    INFJ - Large scale identity. They identify with a big group or a whole country.
    ENFJ - Identify with people.
    ISFJ - Identity is things like family and how they fit into society.
    ESFJ - Their identity is their family or community.
    ESFP - Identity is their values, their image and the stuff they can do that expresses themselves.
    ISFP - Their art whatever it is and their values.
    INFP - Their identity is their values and their imaginary world.
    ENFP - Similar to INFP but larger in scale and directed outward at the world.
    INTP - Identity is their bug collection or whatever they have chosen to obsess over.
    ENTP - Identity is their ideas about the world.
    ESTP - Identity is the stuff they do and what they choose to associate with.
    ISTP - True individualists. Have our own world.
    INTJ - Their identity is whatever they have judged about the world.
    ENTJ - Their identity is whatever they have deemed to be valuable in the world.
    ISTJ - Their values or morals about society and family.
    ESTJ - Identity is in creating order and family.

  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    @Standuble summed up what I would say about IPs & EJs. I'll add that their (our) problems tend to be sticking too much to the identity. IPs will find it hard to find anything to match their internal self, and can appear to just float along or to withdraw & be kind of bitter about it (Jung talks about the chip on the shoulder IPs carry due to assuming they will be invalidated by an extroverted judging world). EJs can over adapt to the external system of their choice, so that they lose touch with their individual needs which blows up in their face later. Instead of looking selfless, as they may experience it though, they can look like they uphold or even push rather narrow & few "roles" for people & expect everyone to fit one as they do. On the other hand, IPs can needlessly reject stuff or carry a sense of compromising greatly (and not being known, etc) when the external role is not the stifling cage they are making it out to be.

    But EPs & IJs have problems too.... it's the opposite though. Instead of being too attached to an identity (whether an inner sense of self or external role), EPs can be too fluid. Hence Pe types getting pegged as flaky or unpredictable, but they still have the Ji "true to self" aspect, it's just that the self is more about a moment than a more crafted ideal. They can seem to stand for nothing or to bounce between things according to what interests them right now. There is some truth that we are not static as humans, and identity is fluid & that should be accepted - you are who you are NOW, not just an ideal you strive for, who you were before, or who you are about to be, although these are part of you also. This is when we let go of ego a little bit (which we confuse as our real identity).

    But IJs are harder to see this with. I think a good example is some INJ celebrities who craft these distinct & sometimes notorious personas, and seem to confuse themselves with it. Because there can be a sticking to the persona it doesn't look fluid, but it's not connected to any real sense of self like an IP (Jung noted IJs don't experience their inner visions as saying anything about themselves personally, whereas IPs relate it to the self to understand it, ie, make sense of it). I think like EJs, they may also feel some self-sacrifice, but to an outside eye it looks like they've created a narrow role for themselves & refuse to acknowledge when they act outside it. We see this in ISTJs who become their duty, and have little outside it, and INFJs who become their art or moral cause, and alienate or stomp over people with it, etc. Their identity is in their vision of how things should be & whatever they feel/think beyond it is not really dealt with directly, and this can look like rigidity, hypocrisy, and perhaps the "empty" effect of someone who is not a whole person anymore but a symbol.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    @Standuble summed up what I would say about IPs & EJs. I'll add that their (our) problems tend to be sticking too much to the identity.
    I wouldn't include ISTPs with your IPs. INFP and INTP have Si so there is a conflict between having an identity and the need to conform. ISTPs don't have Si I don't give a shit about conforming. This is how leaders are made.

  8. #28
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I wouldn't include ISTPs with your IPs. INFP and INTP have Si so there is a conflict between having an identity and the need to conform. ISTPs don't have Si I don't give a shit about conforming. This is how leaders are made.
    That's not what Si is. And I have no idea how you took what I said to be about conforming nor a conflict over it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That's not what Si is. And I have no idea how you took what I said to be about conforming nor a conflict over it.
    Yea it is that's the effect it ends up giving. Si is the traditionalist function. The opposite of being too attached to an identity is to conform which is what you are implying needs to be done more.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Yea it is that's the effect it ends up giving. Si is the traditionalist function. The opposite of being too attached to an identity is to conform which is what you are implying needs to be done more.
    Si does represent tradition in the use of memory and whatnot, but it doesn't really conform to anything other than the past, i.e. this is how we've always done things, so let's just keep doing it. I would see Fe as a conforming function, especially in the dominant function. Fe doms would probably be that person that is keeping up with current events in the entertainment world and shit (band-wagoners for a more modern-esque term), while Si doms would probably be the guys saying "Back in my day, we use to ___________", and they would also be the opposite of band-wagoners and stick with the same trend/team/whatever for the entirety of their life I would imagine.

    Also, the most individualistic types are INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ENTP (only extrovert due to being the most introverted extrovert), INFP, and after that ENTJ and then ESTP after that.

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