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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think having ti, ni and ne and te as pretty high functions for INTs actually seems to fit with what I recall Jung saying,as how both "attitudes" exist in everyone, and an introverted thinking type can apply thinking externally, for instance, and that it's actually important to use both attitudes. I'm too lazy to find an exact quote, but maybe someone else can help me.

    @superunknown maybe?
    I think a lot of his theories on personality and health deal with finding common ground across types - or at least, not getting sucked deep into any singular facet of existence. For example, regarding extroversion, "Hysteria is, in my view, by far the most frequent neurosis with the extraverted type... To begin with, the 'hysterical' character is an exaggeration of the normal attitude; it is then complicated by compensatory reactions from the side of the unconscious, which manifests its opposition to the extravagant extraversion in the form of physical disorders, whereupon an introversion of psychic energy becomes unavoidable."

    So, a particular attention to the extroverted attitude makes you insensitive, or combative, to the forces driving within. Conversely, a particular introverted attitude brings you discordant with reality, and all the other peculiarities that come with it.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ti doesn’t care though hence it prefers to mould its understanding around its perception data, which it hopes is accurate hence such psyches dislike loops (Ti-Ni or Ti-Si loops).
    This leaves an impression of Ti essentially being doomed to confirmation bias.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    This leaves an impression of Ti essentially being doomed to confirmation bias.
    Unless it is moderated by an objective function such as Ne or Fe or even a shadowed Te and Se.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Moral insanity is not too subjective to describe a psychopath, for it implies that the individual totally lacks a moral compass, something which non-afflicted people have one way or another despite no central agreement on what is right and wrong. Moral insanity is directly equal to lack of conscience, an actual sign of psychopathy.

    From:http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-arti...functions.html

    Extroverted Thinking
    Valuing external logic, the psyche prefers to guide its sense of logic by looking for evidence to support the desired logic. Like Ti, the Te psyche can create internal logical classifications to build understanding. However the difference is that the logic (guided by another subjective function) made must have a strong adherence to the external reality else the psyche disputes it. Ti doesn’t care though hence it prefers to mould its understanding around its perception data, which it hopes is accurate hence such psyches dislike loops (Ti-Ni or Ti-Si loops).

    Introverted Thinking
    Introverted logic has similarities to Te in the sense that the psyche sources its data from the external world. Ti types can see the same logic as Te types do, they don’t invent logic in order to create understanding. Instead, they focus and “subject” the external logic creating meaning. In subjecting the logic, these types hope that the perception data they employ is objective as that becomes the only final frontier establishing objective understanding. As stated before loops (Ti-Si or Ti-Ni) are disliked since they naturally distort the perception of reality.
    How can logic be external? You can only think about things internally, so I don't understand that explanation.

    And don't "adhering to external reality" and gaining information through "perception data" mean the same thing? Or do E-TJs have a special ability to get more objective information from the external world than I-TPs do?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Fusion View Post
    How can logic be external? You can only think about things internally, so I don't understand that explanation.

    And don't "adhering to external reality" and gaining information through "perception data" mean the same thing? Or do E-TJs have a special ability to get more objective information from the external world than I-TPs do?
    You misunderstand, Ti is logic directed internally, and Te is logic directed externally, the logic is still formulated in your mind, but it is directed in different ways and drawn from different things.

    External logic is concrete mathematics and concrete information. This person is worth this much to me; therefore, I will play him as such to improve the efficiency of this situation. It's systematical, organized, and brutally efficient.

    Internal logic is more abstract mathematics and abstract information. Ti is responsible for branching connections made by Se or Ne; therefore, this object is related to this one, therefore the latter object may be related to this other object because that object is related to the former object, and from that we can draw x using this type of logic.

    Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information.

    Gaining information from perception data is just as it says, gathering information for the already present internal logic to sort and categorize

    E-TJs are a little bit more objective than I-TPs, but E-TJs lack in terms of creativity and abstract problem-solving capabilities, it is by no means a special ability, it is just a skill. If you really wanted to, you could start developing your Te and trusting it more and thereby become more objective than an E-TJ, but that also hinders the capabilities of your Ti, your already strong and developed function.

    ENTJs and INTPs are about equal in terms of finding objective data from the outside world, its just that ENTJs just do it more.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    You misunderstand, Ti is logic directed internally, and Te is logic directed externally, the logic is still formulated in your mind, but it is directed in different ways and drawn from different things.

    External logic is concrete mathematics and concrete information. This person is worth this much to me; therefore, I will play him as such to improve the efficiency of this situation. It's systematical, organized, and brutally efficient.

    Internal logic is more abstract mathematics and abstract information. Ti is responsible for branching connections made by Se or Ne; therefore, this object is related to this one, therefore the latter object may be related to this other object because that object is related to the former object, and from that we can draw x using this type of logic.

    Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information.

    Gaining information from perception data is just as it says, gathering information for the already present internal logic to sort and categorize

    E-TJs are a little bit more objective than I-TPs, but E-TJs lack in terms of creativity and abstract problem-solving capabilities, it is by no means a special ability, it is just a skill. If you really wanted to, you could start developing your Te and trusting it more and thereby become more objective than an E-TJ, but that also hinders the capabilities of your Ti, your already strong and developed function.

    ENTJs and INTPs are about equal in terms of finding objective data from the outside world, its just that ENTJs just do it more.
    Yes, that's how I understand it. But the quote you posted didn't make it so clear.

    But the "efficiency" of Te is in a way a proof of it's inherent subjectivity. They need to have a strong subjective sense that something is "worth" doing in order to put so much time and energy into accomplishing tasks. As an INTP, it takes me forever to get this feeling, so I rarely accomplish anything, just think about them haha.

    In my experience Ti is not just about making connections (Ne is the function for that). It's usually experienced by me as a need for carefully defined and puzzled-out thinking. I love just sitting down and thinking about something (usually philosophy, science, or my writing) - I do it at least four or five hours a day, and get grumpy when I don't have the time. I also hate when someone doesn't explain things properly, even if they are generally right haha. But these things might just be me, I don't know.

    "Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information."
    I don't understand this. What would this look like to a Ti user? I thought you just said earlier that all logic is formulated in the mind, so how can it be drawn from the environment here?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Fusion View Post
    Yes, that's how I understand it. But the quote you posted didn't make it so clear.

    But the "efficiency" of Te is in a way a proof of it's inherent subjectivity. They need to have a strong subjective sense that something is "worth" doing in order to put so much time and energy into accomplishing tasks. As an INTP, it takes me forever to get this feeling, so I rarely accomplish anything, just think about them haha.

    In my experience Ti is not just about making connections (Ne is the function for that). It's usually experienced by me as a need for carefully defined and puzzled-out thinking. I love just sitting down and thinking about something (usually philosophy, science, or my writing) - I do it at least four or five hours a day, and get grumpy when I don't have the time. I also hate when someone doesn't explain things properly, even if they are generally right haha. But these things might just be me, I don't know.

    "Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information."
    I don't understand this. What would this look like to a Ti user? I thought you just said earlier that all logic is formulated in the mind, so how can it be drawn from the environment here?
    The efficiency of Te creates a compulsion that is felt by its user to form systems so that information can be seen objectively and clearly without personal logic and inner workings, that "subjective" sense you are describing is merely a trait attributed to any xxxJ type, motivation.

    I have limited expertise in the use of Te, but I do use it pretty often as I do/did Ni. Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information and just clearly interpreting the facts and data that are evident (either by iNtuition or Sensing). Bar graphs, pie charts, arithmetic, and any form of basic math and statistics is how I would explain Te to someone unfamiliar with it I guess. (If there is an ENTJ or ESTJ here I would love you to explain it).

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    [... Lots of good stuff I generally agree with...]

    And what functions model should a good test be matching, anyway? Myers acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars believed (rightly, IMHO) that Jung's model for a Ti-dom with an N auxiliary was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe. Myers' model was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe — although, as explained in my linked post (below), Myers, despite some lip service to the contrary, essentially abandoned the functions for the dichotomies. Harold Grant's model — followed by Berens and Nardi and most of the other modern functions theorists — was Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.
    I think it would be difficult to argue that Jung would say his model for a Ti-dom with N-aux would be Ti-Ni-Se-Fe:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychological Types p340
    We call a mode of behavior extraverted only when the mechanism of extraversion predominates. In these cases the most differentiated function is always employed in an extraverted way, whereas the inferior functions are introverted; in other words, the superior function is the most conscious one and completely under the conscious control, whereas the less differentiated functions are in part unconscious and far less under the control of consciousness.
    To me is sounds like he is saying something similar to Myers's model, where all but the dominant function have the opposite attitude. I suppose one could argue that he's just leaving out any mention of the auxiliary... but seems like that would be a bit odd. It's also possible that he elaborated on his model later.

    Then there's his discussion of the auxiliary:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychological Types p407
    The unconscious functions likewise group themselves in patterns correlating with the conscious ones. Thus, the correlation of conscious, practical thinking may be an unconscious, intuitive-feeling attitude, with feelings under a stronger inhibition than intuition. [...] I have frequently observed how an analyst, confronted with a terrific thinking type, for instance, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. Such an attempt is foredoomed to failure, because it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. [...] But the approach to the unconscious and to the most repressed function is disclosed, as it were, of its own accord, and with adequate protections of the conscious standpoint, when the way of development proceeds via the auxiliary function -- in the case of a rational type via one of the irrational functions. This gives the patient a broader view of what is happening, and of what is possible, so that his consciousness is sufficiently protected against the inroads of the unconscious.
    So there it sounds like in this section there are two groupings... the "conscious functions" (presumably dom and aux) and the "unconscious ones". Still, I think it's more sensible to read that as saying that the in Jung's model, the dominant is the most conscious of the four, and the inferior is the least, and where he draws the conscious/unconscious dividing line depends upon the topic at hand. Of course, it may be he added the idea of the auxiliary as an afterthought, and his previous discussion of dominant vs other functions didn't really take the auxiliary into account.

    At any rate, even INTP meaning "dominant Ti" isn't really supportable according to Reynierse. In his view, someone preferring iNTP might have a stronger preference for intuition and perception than for thinking (and hence those characteristics will tend to predominate).

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The efficiency of Te creates a compulsion that is felt by its user to form systems so that information can be seen objectively and clearly without personal logic and inner workings, that "subjective" sense you are describing is merely a trait attributed to any xxxJ type, motivation.

    I have limited expertise in the use of Te, but I do use it pretty often as I do/did Ni. Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information and just clearly interpreting the facts and data that are evident (either by iNtuition or Sensing). Bar graphs, pie charts, arithmetic, and any form of basic math and statistics is how I would explain Te to someone unfamiliar with it I guess. (If there is an ENTJ or ESTJ here I would love you to explain it).
    The motivation needed to achieve personally defined goals is subjective. How can you have objective motivations? I don't see how either I-TPs or E-TJs win on the overall objectivity scale, they just have different interests.

    How can a person properly understand anything without using "personal logic and inner workings"? To not use these is just remembering "facts" lol!

    "Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information..."
    Which is exactly what Ti does too.

    And yeah, I'd like an E-TJs perspective - if you can spare the time.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Fusion View Post
    The motivation needed to achieve personally defined goals is subjective. How can you have objective motivations? I don't see how either I-TPs or E-TJs win on the overall objectivity scale, they just have different interests.

    How can a person properly understand anything without using "personal logic and inner workings"? To not use these is just remembering "facts" lol!

    "Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information..."
    Which is exactly what Ti does too.
    Motivation is neither subjective nor objective, it is a compulsion and unrelated to the interpretation of information and decision making process. ELABORATION: Motivation only deals with how long it takes to make decisions and interpret information.

    "To not use these is just remembering facts" That's the gist of it. Te is essentially just dealing with factual information and drawing obvious conclusions from the data, especially in the ESTJ.

    Ti welcomes seemingly extraneous information in an attempt to cross reference it with new data to see if it truly isn't extraneous and something can be drawn from it. Te already discarded the extraneous information, which leads Te users to seem close-minded, for in their mind they are looking at only whats relevant to the current situation.

    No one truly wins on the objectivity scale, it's extremely close. ENTJs and ESTJs are just a hair more objective than INTPs and ISTPs because of the simple first letter, as Extroversion is generally accepted as objective while Introversion is generally accepted as subjective, this idea has gone beyond the point of merely ideas but entire lifestyles.

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