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  1. #21
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I have to admit it. BlueWing has invented a unique style of trolling.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Of course there may be ESFJ scholars and INTP personal assistants, but I am not counting on meeting too many.

    Hey what can I do, my purpose is to merely report the state of reality. Blame mother nature, not me. Or your heavenly father, whichever you prefer.
    A major danger here is assuming type is the causal factor rather than how society treats people of certain types. I do know ESFJ scholars (a lot, but they aren't wired to spend countless hours in lit review vs. ethnographic studies for example) and lots of INTPs in very unintellectual careers (especially if they struggled to turn a philosophy major into a paying job).

    To illustrate, let's take elementary math instruction. ESFs (and to a bit lesser degree ESTs) thrive when they receive immediate feedback (often on each problem at the beginning), see multiple examples, have their questions answered as soon as they arise, and work with manipulatives.
    • They may wait an entire day or until a whole problem set is finished before receiving a word of feedback. This increases their anxiety that they're doing something wrong--and stress weakens the ability to learn. Many teachers see these behaviors as "needy" and don't meet their needs
    • When students ask for another example, teachers often either assume they didn't listen well to the first one or give one so different that it seems entirely unrelated to those who learn in incremental ways
    • Many teachers are annoyed by frequent questions--Especially when ESPs ask them as instructions are being given and the IJ teacher often reacts with, "If you'd keep listening you'd find out." The ESPs don't want to wait--it's like a toothache waiting to be filled and they often miss what else is being said, waiting to fill that hole in their notes
    • Teachers want kids "off" manipulatives asap, seeing them as lower level thinking rather than as universal tools for thinking. If you take them away too soon, many kids fail to grasp the foundational understandings.
    • Kids soon start equating fast with smart and methodical with dumb. If they don't work on intuitive flashes in math they start assuming they can't do it. That's like saying Edison was an idiot for having to try over a thousand filaments before inventing a workable light bulb


    All of this adds up to an environment ripe for math anxiety in ESF's--and that's exactly where it's most prevalent. Meet their needs--which isn't all that hard if the teacher grasps that they aren't whiney, blurting, slow kids but ones who don't respond to lecture/problem set learning--and all of a sudden they're thinking like mathematicians.

    So...just because INs do have the highest standardized test scores says nothing about intelligence. Geez--we wrote the tests. And we defined the world of academia. If we had a level playing field in education, who knows what would happen. And since most schools don't even recognize the different needs of different type preferences, type bias is more prevalent than many other kinds of biases...
    edcoaching

  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    A major danger here is assuming type is the causal factor rather than how society treats people of certain types. I do know ESFJ scholars (a lot, but they aren't wired to spend countless hours in lit review vs. ethnographic studies for example) and lots of INTPs in very unintellectual careers (especially if they struggled to turn a philosophy major into a paying job).

    To illustrate, let's take elementary math instruction. ESFs (and to a bit lesser degree ESTs) thrive when they receive immediate feedback (often on each problem at the beginning), see multiple examples, have their questions answered as soon as they arise, and work with manipulatives.
    • They may wait an entire day or until a whole problem set is finished before receiving a word of feedback. This increases their anxiety that they're doing something wrong--and stress weakens the ability to learn. Many teachers see these behaviors as "needy" and don't meet their needs
    • When students ask for another example, teachers often either assume they didn't listen well to the first one or give one so different that it seems entirely unrelated to those who learn in incremental ways
    • Many teachers are annoyed by frequent questions--Especially when ESPs ask them as instructions are being given and the IJ teacher often reacts with, "If you'd keep listening you'd find out." The ESPs don't want to wait--it's like a toothache waiting to be filled and they often miss what else is being said, waiting to fill that hole in their notes
    • Teachers want kids "off" manipulatives asap, seeing them as lower level thinking rather than as universal tools for thinking. If you take them away too soon, many kids fail to grasp the foundational understandings.
    • Kids soon start equating fast with smart and methodical with dumb. If they don't work on intuitive flashes in math they start assuming they can't do it. That's like saying Edison was an idiot for having to try over a thousand filaments before inventing a workable light bulb


    All of this adds up to an environment ripe for math anxiety in ESF's--and that's exactly where it's most prevalent. Meet their needs--which isn't all that hard if the teacher grasps that they aren't whiney, blurting, slow kids but ones who don't respond to lecture/problem set learning--and all of a sudden they're thinking like mathematicians.

    So...just because INs do have the highest standardized test scores says nothing about intelligence. Geez--we wrote the tests. And we defined the world of academia. If we had a level playing field in education, who knows what would happen. And since most schools don't even recognize the different needs of different type preferences, type bias is more prevalent than many other kinds of biases...
    Type isnt casual factor, but a predilection. As I said, there may be ESFJ scholars and even INTJ athletes.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #24
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Type isnt casual factor, but a predilection. As I said, there may be ESFJ scholars and even INTJ athletes.
    Some of the best athletes out there are INTJs...performance is a puzzle to be solved and challenge to be conquered.

    Predilections are tricky, too...give them too much weight and we stop trying to fix the schools to get everyone to learn the math they really need, even if they don't all go on to receive PhD's in the subject. I might venture that we don't have enough data. If ESFJ needs were really met in math classrooms, and if academia were more accepting of different pathways to rigor, who knows how the type tables of people involved in heavily mathematical careers might change. Hmmm, might have to ask my Singapore friends, where one of the best foundational math programs out there was developed...
    edcoaching

  5. #25
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Some of the best athletes out there are INTJs...performance is a puzzle to be solved and challenge to be conquered.

    Predilections are tricky, too...give them too much weight and we stop trying to fix the schools to get everyone to learn the math they really need, even if they don't all go on to receive PhD's in the subject. I might venture that we don't have enough data. If ESFJ needs were really met in math classrooms, and if academia were more accepting of different pathways to rigor, who knows how the type tables of people involved in heavily mathematical careers might change. Hmmm, might have to ask my Singapore friends, where one of the best foundational math programs out there was developed...
    INTJs generally have trouble with physical tasks because they have least access to S of all types. Se weaker than Si (as introverted functions are in closer affinity with the essence of being as they, unlike their extroverted counterpart do not depend on the external object for legitimation), their T nature (disadvantaged to INFJs) divorces them from passion and therefore action. Yet their highly intuitive mindset may propound 'mind over matter' mentality as panacea. In extraordinary cases this suffices, but as a general rule it divorces the INJ from the practical matters of Se even further, which are necessary in order to perform in physical tasks.

    Yes, there could be ESFJs adept at formal reasoning as well as highly sensitive INTPs. We're talking in circles now.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #26
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    INTJs generally have trouble with physical tasks because they have least access to S of all types. Se weaker than Si (as introverted functions are in closer affinity with the essence of being as they, unlike their extroverted counterpart do not depend on the external object for legitimation), their T nature (disadvantaged to INFJs) divorces them from passion and therefore action. Yet their highly intuitive mindset may propound 'mind over matter' mentality as panacea. In extraordinary cases this suffices, but as a general rule it divorces the INJ from the practical matters of Se even further, which are necessary in order to perform in physical tasks.
    Because intricate physical pursuits can completely turn off Ni and therefore provide immense rest to Ni's, they often become dedicated athletes--sticking to repetitive sports where mindfulness to environment isn't quite as important as training in technique--track and field, swimming, weightlifting, sailing, golf (you get to think before each move) are all proven places to excel for Ni's.

    I understand the generalizations you're making about Ni/Se and athletics but athletic ability is separate from type and, when any type takes the time to figure out what sport fits their build and temperament they can go quite far. I on the other hand picked a sport not suited to me either way (springboard diving for this more typical Ni with difficulties with Se) and still through sheer there's gotta be a way to get better at this frustration made it to nationals. How I placed is a secret for the ages but I often wonder how I would have fared as a runner, far more suited to my mental processes...
    edcoaching

  7. #27
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    A major danger here is assuming type is the causal factor rather than how society treats people of certain types. I do know ESFJ scholars (a lot, but they aren't wired to spend countless hours in lit review vs. ethnographic studies for example) and lots of INTPs in very unintellectual careers (especially if they struggled to turn a philosophy major into a paying job).

    To illustrate, let's take elementary math instruction. ESFs (and to a bit lesser degree ESTs) thrive when they receive immediate feedback (often on each problem at the beginning), see multiple examples, have their questions answered as soon as they arise, and work with manipulatives.
    • They may wait an entire day or until a whole problem set is finished before receiving a word of feedback. This increases their anxiety that they're doing something wrong--and stress weakens the ability to learn. Many teachers see these behaviors as "needy" and don't meet their needs
    • When students ask for another example, teachers often either assume they didn't listen well to the first one or give one so different that it seems entirely unrelated to those who learn in incremental ways
    • Many teachers are annoyed by frequent questions--Especially when ESPs ask them as instructions are being given and the IJ teacher often reacts with, "If you'd keep listening you'd find out." The ESPs don't want to wait--it's like a toothache waiting to be filled and they often miss what else is being said, waiting to fill that hole in their notes
    • Teachers want kids "off" manipulatives asap, seeing them as lower level thinking rather than as universal tools for thinking. If you take them away too soon, many kids fail to grasp the foundational understandings.
    • Kids soon start equating fast with smart and methodical with dumb. If they don't work on intuitive flashes in math they start assuming they can't do it. That's like saying Edison was an idiot for having to try over a thousand filaments before inventing a workable light bulb


    All of this adds up to an environment ripe for math anxiety in ESF's--and that's exactly where it's most prevalent. Meet their needs--which isn't all that hard if the teacher grasps that they aren't whiney, blurting, slow kids but ones who don't respond to lecture/problem set learning--and all of a sudden they're thinking like mathematicians.

    So...just because INs do have the highest standardized test scores says nothing about intelligence. Geez--we wrote the tests. And we defined the world of academia. If we had a level playing field in education, who knows what would happen. And since most schools don't even recognize the different needs of different type preferences, type bias is more prevalent than many other kinds of biases...
    Quote from Woody Allen's "Don't drink the water": "I majored in philosophy. I guess I thought I'd open a store and sell concepts".

  8. #28
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    A racist would claim that his preferred race is superior to all others.

    I think this notion absurd. I wouldnt maintain that the lower types on the list necessarily produce brighter individuals(this is a far cry from the claim racists tend to make that one group of people tend to be all in all superior to others. Whilst INTs may have the potential to be the brightest, there is a myriad of things that ESFs are superior to them in), but only have a tendency to.

    Of course there may be ESFJ scholars and INTP personal assistants, but I am not counting on meeting too many.

    Hey what can I do, my purpose is to merely report the state of reality. Blame mother nature, not me. Or your heavenly father, whichever you prefer.
    SEGREGATION is the word that I ment actually, not racial.

    Actually the nazis did it too, selected something irrelevant trait (etc. looks: the blonde hair and the perfect body build) and told the people that that particular trait is superior to other traits. The next step is to look down to the non-superior people and even go further to eliminate them.

    You are doing it too (and I don't mean the elimination by this). Trying to prove that one trait (T) is superior to others and that other people (without T) are basically on the caveman's level.

    So, absolutely no to the segregation of any kind. It's a dangerous way. The history proves it.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    A major danger here is assuming type is the causal factor rather than how society treats people of certain types. I do know ESFJ scholars (a lot, but they aren't wired to spend countless hours in lit review vs. ethnographic studies for example) and lots of INTPs in very unintellectual careers (especially if they struggled to turn a philosophy major into a paying job).

    To illustrate, let's take elementary math instruction. ESFs (and to a bit lesser degree ESTs) thrive when they receive immediate feedback (often on each problem at the beginning), see multiple examples, have their questions answered as soon as they arise, and work with manipulatives.
    • They may wait an entire day or until a whole problem set is finished before receiving a word of feedback. This increases their anxiety that they're doing something wrong--and stress weakens the ability to learn. Many teachers see these behaviors as "needy" and don't meet their needs
    • When students ask for another example, teachers often either assume they didn't listen well to the first one or give one so different that it seems entirely unrelated to those who learn in incremental ways
    • Many teachers are annoyed by frequent questions--Especially when ESPs ask them as instructions are being given and the IJ teacher often reacts with, "If you'd keep listening you'd find out." The ESPs don't want to wait--it's like a toothache waiting to be filled and they often miss what else is being said, waiting to fill that hole in their notes
    • Teachers want kids "off" manipulatives asap, seeing them as lower level thinking rather than as universal tools for thinking. If you take them away too soon, many kids fail to grasp the foundational understandings.
    • Kids soon start equating fast with smart and methodical with dumb. If they don't work on intuitive flashes in math they start assuming they can't do it. That's like saying Edison was an idiot for having to try over a thousand filaments before inventing a workable light bulb


    All of this adds up to an environment ripe for math anxiety in ESF's--and that's exactly where it's most prevalent. Meet their needs--which isn't all that hard if the teacher grasps that they aren't whiney, blurting, slow kids but ones who don't respond to lecture/problem set learning--and all of a sudden they're thinking like mathematicians.

    So...just because INs do have the highest standardized test scores says nothing about intelligence. Geez--we wrote the tests. And we defined the world of academia. If we had a level playing field in education, who knows what would happen. And since most schools don't even recognize the different needs of different type preferences, type bias is more prevalent than many other kinds of biases...
    Why are manipulatives (how about "real life objects") considered lower-level thinking? You got me to actually look up what manipulatives are, I think they should stay in the classroom all the way until high school (and into college). Students would probably end up with much stronger imagination skill (and how else would someone strengthen thier imagination?

    Most calculus TEXTBOOKS introduce the derivative with a formal definition of speed. I can't think of a single person who would call that approach "lower-level thinking".

    In fact, the "battle" you described continues into college:

    Some physics professors deny the existence of the centrifugal force, and insist that there is only a "centripetal" force. Which is true...sort of. The funny thing is, approaches like the one I just described at the college level end up actually being an insult to (underestimation of) students' intelligence. Whoever teaches introductory physics assumes that those kids are too stupid to understand the idea of accellerating reference frames (if you are driving around a bend, you are in an accellerating reference frame, your speed in any set direction is changing. Yet, within this reference frame, you feel pulled OUTWARD (centrifugal force), not inward, or straight ahead) If the teacher could just take time to introduce the accellerating reference frame, people would not have to defy thier senses by telling themselves that they had just been experiencing a 'fictitious force'.

  10. #30
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Most calculus TEXTBOOKS introduce the derivative with a formal definition of speed. I can't think of a single person who would call that approach "lower-level thinking".
    As someone who used to teach Freshman Calculus I would consider that to be "lower-level thinking".
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