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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    personality type itself is a decently good indicator of whether a person will be interested in MBTI.
    This is a completely circular argument. So it is a self validating argument. In other words, it is begging the question.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Control isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    Yes, a controlling personality is an improvement on an abusive personality, just as an empathic and creative personality is an improvement on a controlling personality.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    INFP is the type most likely to be a creative artist, and I'd also say the INFs are relatively empathic types.
    There is no empirical evidence that infp are most likely to be a creative artist, none whatsoever.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    If there's any other silly propaganda you've uncritically gobbled down about the MBTI, feel free to let me know, and I'll do my best to continue your deprogramming.
    Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.

    And Carl Jung himself writes that Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence.

    Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

    Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

    And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Association followed the orders of Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.

    And Carl Jung himself writes that Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence.

    Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

    Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

    And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Society followed the orders of Reichmarshall Goering including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.
    Here we go again.

  6. #36
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    There is no empirical evidence that infp are most likely to be a creative artist, none whatsoever.
    None whatsoever, eh? You can start with the statistics discussed in this post.

    Is this one of those "empirical evidence" threads? Does that mean you can point me to some "empirical evidence" for your assertions that "those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti" and "the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.
    Isabel Myers had no formal education in psychometrics. She was many years out of school when she educated herself in psychometrics for purposes of developing the MBTI. And I doubt you really have a problem with that. You're just pretending you've found a ground for disapproval because, apparently, you don't have any real ones.

    As noted in Katharine Myers' Extended History of the MBTI:

    In 1956, Isabel was visited by David R. Saunders, Ph.D., a brilliant psychometrician and psychologist who worked at Educational Testing Service (ETS) in Princeton, N.J., which published college entrance exams (the SAT) and other intelligence tests. Henry Chauncey, president of ETS, had long wanted to publish a personality instrument, and he was intrigued and sent one of his top people to investigate. David was impressed and on his recommendation, Isabel was invited to present her work at ETS in Princeton and an agreement was made for ETS to become the publisher.
    As for "plagiarizing" Jung: on the contrary! Plagiarizing involves trying to take credit for someone else's work. Gifts Differing is actually disingenuous in the other direction. Myers made countless improvements, both large and small, to Jung but, because Jung had a name and she didn't, she exaggerated the extent to which her typology was simply derivative of Jung's original conceptions. She gave herself too little credit, not too much credit.

    As David Keirsey has explained:

    Quote Originally Posted by Keirsey
    Myers must have accomplished her feat of developing Jung's distinctions into sixteen type portraits by dint of considerable observation of people in action, as well as a great deal of imaginative speculation. Salvaging the useful parts of Jung's cumbersome and self-contradictory theory of psychological types and making it available to scientist and layman alike was quite a feat. So the debt owed Isabel Myers by students of human conduct is truly enormous.
    McCrae and Costa are the most prominent Big Five psychologists, and they've acknowledged that the MBTI is effectively tapping into four of the Big Five personality dimensions and noted that the Myers-Briggs typology passes muster in the psychometrics department in a way that Jung's original conceptions never did. Here's some of what they had to say in this 1989 article:

    Quote Originally Posted by McCrae & Costa
    Although it provides rich insights into some aspects of individual differences, Jung's theory also creates formidable obstacles to the development of an inventory for assessing types. Much of his description concerns the unconscious life of the individual, which is not directly accessible to self-report. ... Descriptions of attitudes and functions sometimes seem to overlap ... and all classifications are complicated by the intrusion of unconscious elements of the opposing function when the dominant, conscious function is overdeveloped. Finally, Jung's descriptions of what might be considered superficial but objectively observable characteristics often include traits that do not empirically covary. Jung described extraverts as "open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters," but also as morally conventional and tough-minded in James's sense. Decades of research on the dimension of extraversion show that these attributes simply do not cohere in a single factor. ...

    Faced with these difficulties, Myers and Briggs created an instrument by elaborating on the most easily assessed and distinctive traits suggested by Jung's writings and their own observations of individuals they considered exemplars of different types and by relying heavily on traditional psychometric procedures (principally item-scale correlations). Their work produced a set of internally consistent and relatively uncorrelated indices. ...

    Jungians might question the addition of the JP scale, or even the enterprise of constructing a self-report type indicator. From the psychometric perspective, however, the MBTI may be looked upon as an advance over Jung's largely untested speculations. However one chooses to evaluate the instrument, it is crucial to realize that it is not isomorphic with the theory on which it is based. ...

    [The present study] found no support for the typological theory the instrument is intended to embody. ... The correlates of individual scales were consistent with their item content, but would probably not have been predicted from Jungian theory. ... Yet how can the MBTI be interpreted or employed without reference to Jung's psychological types? One alternative is to adopt the perspective of the five-factor model of personality. Each of the four indices showed impressive evidence of convergence with one of the five major dimensions of normal personality. It is these convergences that probably account for the many meaningful associations between MBTI scales and external criteria such as occupational preferences, creativity, and educational performance.
    Last edited by reckful; 12-11-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #37
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    Default Somatic and Psychological Types

    Carl Jung wrote Psychological Types to complement the somatic types of the Führer.

    The somatic types are Aryan, Negro, Asian and Jew.

    The somatic types are designed to reify persons.

    And so the psychological types are also designed to reify persons.

  8. #38
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

    Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

    And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Association followed the orders of Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.
    That's funny. I could have sworn this thread was about whether "those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti" and "the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti."

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, a controlling personality is an improvement on an abusive personality, just as an empathic and creative personality is an improvement on a controlling personality.
    Show me a creative personality who has no control over the tools and media he/she creates with, and I will show you someone who creates messes and chaos.

    We must wonder if you really aren't a closet MBTI afficionado. You couldn't have given MBTI enthusiasts a better setup for making their case than your line of posting on this thread. Seems you have learned something from your Bernays muse after all.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    Here we go again.
    Like a drifter we were born to walk alone

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