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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The possibility of having alts really does make it difficult to determine what one type "favors" -- especially if they're P's, who I would guess to be even more altaholic than J's.
    The "main/ alt" concept was (and still is) one of the stranger things when I first started reading a lot about world of warcraft. It seemed very strange that the "natural" way to play was to mostly stick to one main character, rather than have a few different ones (Just playing one character seems like it would really bore a lot of people, plus in D2 and Guild wars, the two Character buolding games I played before, the expectation was that people would have several characters that got played.)

  2. #32
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Your statement is surprising. What makes you think that it is the case? What evidence is there of this? I would postulate that NTJ's are especially good at talking about moral philosophy, seeing that both ENTJ's and INTJ's have Extraverted Thinking and this function is essentially good at making universal principles that apply to everyone to structure society. Indeed, law faculties seem to have an over-representation of NTJ types compared to a random sample of the general population. Philosophy of ethics is a necessart first step to making laws. It is an important component and any law faculties actually do philosophy of laws when they study and discuss laws. Many of the professors there are NTJ's and attracted to this.
    Using the same argument as you - that was what Jung said. Ti is geared towards philosophy, as you say, the very basis of morality and ethics. I will never argue that Te isn't the dominant type in law, in order, in administrative types. It is simply irrelevent, no less so than saying that SPs care more about people because they tend to be firefighters, or that SFJs care the most deeply about people because they become nurses.

    People take on that which suites their nature. That's the bottom line.

    And what makes you think that morality would not be a part of who they are? When I seek people because they are "moral" or "good" I think I'm also seeking them for who they are.
    Some As may be part of Bs, but that does not imply that all As are Bs, that B is made of only As, or any other logical fallacy. I pick good people, not by your definition of moral people. As you said, you are not saying that ENTJs are good people, only 'moral' people. So there is nothing left to argue over. It's just a semantics now.

    I'll pick good people, and some will fall into your definition of moral - what I would call rigid, including their moral stances. They make up the minority of my friends simply because I am more open and curious than they tend to be.

    I do not know what to answer to this comment. I have the impression you dodged my point.
    I used the best words I could find at the time. I could not find words that would not be biased towards negative traits.

  3. #33
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    I'd always played as a hunter (crossbowman) in the MMORPGs I used to play (not WoW though). I considered being a priest once, but training took too long.
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  4. #34
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    I played a Tauren Shaman and got him up to 60. I played with a group of friends at release and found out that they needed a hybrid class. I thought, "Meh, what the hell. As long as I can travel fast, that's fine with me". I debated whether or not to play a druid or shaman, but ultimately chose the shaman because I'm not the best of healers and didn't want to be put into that position (in most group situations). Overall, playing the Shaman was alright, but I was rather disheartened to find that were so many of them. I'm a sucker for the class that no one plays and didn't really know it was going to as popular as it was. I never really went for the cookie cutter builds and wanted to try different play styles out-which unfortunately reduced me to rags. I never was really big on going on huge 40 man PVE raids like Molten Core. I mean, they were fun for the first few times, but realizing that I couldn't commit the time for raiding alongside the upper-tiered guilds, the occasional time I would panic if a lot of responsibility was bestowed on me, or the mind-numbing grind for better equipment, ultimately made me lose some interest in the game. Granted, if I was in a causal yet intelligent guild, I think that I wouldn't have such a negative approach. PVPing was fun, but again, became a bit repetitive and hated the farming aspect of it. I actually enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot's RVR (PVP) system a lot and had some great times with my Briton Mercenary (Dual-wielding light tank).

    I'm really into exploring, helping my friends level up/quest/gain money to help them out and dungeon crawl with a small group. I find that friends make an MMORPG helluva a lot better to play. Class wise, hybrids are my favorite, though I'd be more likely to play as a pure melee class than a pure caster class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    I've always been drawn to druids ... had one in the original Everquest as a primary and have one now in World of Warcraft as a primary. My second favorite character is my rogue. I like the versatility of the druid (can play healer, rogue, or warrior) and the damage ability of the rogue. Since I'm an introvert, I solo a lot ... and the druid/rogue stealth abilities allow me to do things alone that would usually take groups.

    I also have a Warlock on Everquest II, which I enjoy playing because ... once again ... it permits me to solo. I already have a small team with the warlock and his pet ... and do not have to socialize as much or deal with messy group dynamics.

    When playing the traditional D&D type games, I tend towards the true neutral alignment ... neutral/neutral. I don't have a particular affinity for either good or evil. Once again, I usually choose a druid ... although sometimes a rogue or warrior.
    Man, another EQ'er! I'd love to buy you a beer and talk about the good ol' days of EQ. Falling off of Kelethin, the legendary trains from Unrest and Castle Mistmoore, Corpse runs, running a Barbarian from Halas all the way to Freeport. Fuckin' A, they don't make mmorpgs like that anymore.

    I played as a Halfling Rogue/Warrior, High Elve Paladin, and Wood Elve Bard over the course of five years (Release all the way up to Omens of War). My highest character was my 45 Bard and never in my life have I had as much fun with any other class in a game before- the purest jack-of-all-trades but master of none. Twisting songs, constantly changing your song line up, SPEED, kiting, ability to solo and group well...*sigh* yeahhhh. Needless to say, my Kiting endeavours helped deck out my party of friends' equipment.

    I've played a little bit of Everquest 2 and only really made it up to the high twenties. I enjoyed my Brawler and Mystic. It was a little too big for my taste , though the environments and the game mechanics were cool. The melee combat system could be improved a bit by making the sheer amount of combat arts more unique, skillful and more significant than mashing buttons and doing just as well. Granted, the Group Chains help in that regard, but I never really noticed if they, if successful, were "life-changing". Again, I never really made it up to the higher levels, so I could be mistaken.

    As far as DnD goes, I've enjoyed playing the following: Cleric, Rogue, Bard and Ranger. As far as Alignment goes, I'm a big fan of True Neutral with Chaotic Neutral as my second choice.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Using the same argument as you - that was what Jung said. Ti is geared towards philosophy, as you say, the very basis of morality and ethics. I will never argue that Te isn't the dominant type in law, in order, in administrative types. It is simply irrelevent, no less so than saying that SPs care more about people because they tend to be firefighters, or that SFJs care the most deeply about people because they become nurses.
    No, that's ridiculous. Te is geared towards the outside world and making rules that apply to everyone, which is the case of morality. Ti isn't.

    Some As may be part of Bs, but that does not imply that all As are Bs, that B is made of only As, or any other logical fallacy. I pick good people, not by your definition of moral people. As you said, you are not saying that ENTJs are good people, only 'moral' people. So there is nothing left to argue over. It's just a semantics now.
    Of course there is. People who have "good" morals is exactly the point of what you'll choose as friends.

  6. #36
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    No, that's ridiculous. Te is geared towards the outside world and making rules that apply to everyone, which is the case of morality. Ti isn't.
    Definition of morality. I don't see much that says making rules, applying them to everyone or anything of the sort.

    Definition of philosophy, note the various relationships to ethics, knowledge, etc. Take it up with Jung if you disagree about his view on Ti being geared towards exploration of philosophy. Course, that is also taken out of context, since he also talked about how different types led to different philosophy groups.


    Of course there is. People who have "good" morals is exactly the point of what you'll choose as friends.
    If you use two different definitions of morality, I'm sure that's true. I have a simple way of picking my friends - I base on what kind of people I want around me. I certainly don't want to be around "paladin" friends all the time, I can tell you that, which seems to be one of your definitions of "moral". In that case, no, I don't want just "moral" friends telling me what I should be doing.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Definition of morality. I don't see much that says making rules, applying them to everyone or anything of the sort.
    Sure, I'll just take the first definitions from that link:

    concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
    ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
    Morality is a system of principles and judgments based on cultural, religious, and philosophical concepts and beliefs, by which humans determine whether given actions are right or wrong. These concepts and beliefs are often generalized and codified by a culture or group, and thus serve to regulate the behaviour of its members. Conformity to such codification may also be called morality, and the group may depend on widespread conformity to such codes for its continued existence. ...
    This is exactly what Jung was talking about in his definition of Extraverted Thinking. So it's obvious that we're talking about a process that is applied to the external world. Definitions of "right" and "wrong" for a society to function - There's nothing more TJ than that. TP's probably don't even believe there's such a thing as a right or wrong.

    Definition of philosophy, note the various relationships to ethics, knowledge, etc. Take it up with Jung if you disagree about his view on Ti being geared towards exploration of philosophy. Course, that is also taken out of context, since he also talked about how different types led to different philosophy groups.
    Of course, the foundations and fundamentals of philosophy are Ti. Morality is about applied concepts, the practical and "right" thing to do - All Te.

    If you use two different definitions of morality, I'm sure that's true. I have a simple way of picking my friends - I base on what kind of people I want around me. I certainly don't want to be around "paladin" friends all the time, I can tell you that, which seems to be one of your definitions of "moral". In that case, no, I don't want just "moral" friends telling me what I should be doing.
    Of course, but that's just picking the unhealthy variants again. Pick a healthy "paladin" friend and he won't tell you what is right/wrong but he'll live by his principles tightly.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Of course, the foundations and fundamentals of philosophy are Ti. Morality is about applied concepts, the practical and "right" thing to do - All Te.
    Right, as I said, semantics. You believe simply doing what they think is right is moral, where I think morality is the distinction between good and bad.

    If an ENTJ thinks it is correct to murder, plot and steal and then does so with great conviction, he is moral according to the Te = moral. Increasingly so if that is the cultural standard. I do not, and as such, do not believe that ENTJs deserve the title "moral". I make the non-subjective view that they act within their nature, which is to organise the world around them in their own "image" of what should be... Right or wrong.

    You use moral as you have defined it above, I use it as the study of what is right and wrong, as a division of philosophy.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Right, as I said, semantics. You believe simply doing what they think is right is moral, where I think morality is the distinction between good and bad.

    If an ENTJ thinks it is correct to murder, plot and steal and then does so with great conviction, he is moral according to the Te = moral. Increasingly so if that is the cultural standard. I do not, and as such, do not believe that ENTJs deserve the title "moral". I make the non-subjective view that they act within their nature, which is to organise the world around them in their own "image" of what should be... Right or wrong.

    You use moral as you have defined it above, I use it as the study of what is right and wrong, as a division of philosophy.
    Ptgatsby, you're digging your own grave. I took that definition including right/wrong from the very link you included.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Ptgatsby, you're digging your own grave. I took that definition including right/wrong from the very link you included.
    Yup. You seem to be looking for an argument where there is none. ENTJs act according to their own beliefs and they attempt to get others to do so too.

    I was viewing it differently than you were.

    From my view, ESTJs are even better at it since they uphold traditional standards. INTPs are different, since they try to use objective philosophical standards rather than subjective personal standards. INFPs are far more personal and have a stronger value system than the others, yet another version of it.

    I believe that morality must come from a philosophical background for it to have any significant meaning - INTP type projection. That is to say that the action one takes is either moral or not, but the motivation to enforce moral standards does not make it moral. Your projection is that it is moral to enforce it on others. Yours is closer to the literal meaning and I had to work through the bias I had to get what you were saying.

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