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  1. #11
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano
    Do really think ESTJs and INFPs have the same behavior and that the difference is just an illusion?
    When you eat a round cookie, do you start with the right side or the left side?
    Since a round cookie hasn't got any real sides because it's round (ideally), it depends upon how you hold the cookie in your hand. I'm right-handed and therefore I will most likely start with left side from my view. But it doesn't matter with which side I start, because each side is averagely equal. How exactly is this invalidating my argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Look, people love illusions. And they like to illusion others.
    Yes, religion for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    MBTI is astrology for college educated.
    A bit, most type descriptions on the internet are extremely biased. But that's what people made out of it. Jung and the Myers-Briggs ladies took it serious and as a science.
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Since a round cookie hasn't got any real sides because it's round (ideally), it depends upon how you hold the cookie in your hand. I'm right-handed and therefore I will most likely start with left side from my view. But it doesn't matter with which side I start, because each side is averagely equal. How exactly is this invalidating my argument?
    Hopefully, it will come to you. If not, you can always read Jung.

  3. #13
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    It's all a lot of filtration.

    Once you have picked the scab that is human rationalisation processes, then everything just becomes lots of different perceptions being filtered through brains and out again.

    It doesn't exist, a tiger doesn't exist, none of it really exists. But it exists for us in our heads regardless of whatever variable produced us, because we survive by categorisation of information in order to stem the insanity of empty meaning with the insanity of comprehension and control. But maybe I'm false in my perception, however to me that seems to be as close to truth as I can get.

    And even then it falls in on itself since I have to accept human concepts of truth AS existing in truth.

    But this is largely pointless and a little bit stupid, since it doesn't benefit me or anyone else in the short period of existence we have, just can't shake it, that's all.

    Pff nihilism...it's for kids. Now boredom, that's the true genius of human beings.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think that patterns are not always just there or not there. Sometimes they start and stop and start and stop; sometimes they are so drawn out over time we would never be able to recognize them; sometimes they are just minor reiterations in long chains of chaos.

    The important thing in my opinion is to use the tools you have to make the most out of life. If seeing a certain pattern helps you be happy and healthy, and helps you help others be happy and healthy, then it is a beneficial usage of that perspective. If it is not beneficial to you anymore, then it is harmful to remain trapped by its viewpoint, and it would behoove you to try other tools. You must keep track of your own thinking and decide how to steer the course of your own life.
    Of course a false pattern may help to make you happy and healthy, but is doesn't make it true.

    And we know how to determine which patterns are true and which patterns are false and it is called the scientific method.

    But even more important is our personal integrity. And to continue to recognise a false pattern shows a lack of personal integrity. It also shows a lack of intellectual integrity.

    And quite frankly, it is simply corrupt.

  5. #15
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Yes, religion for example.
    Yes, we love illusions. And illusions are an essential part of our culture.

    The only problem arises when we confuse illusions with reality.

    Illusions that are not confused with reality are created by the suspension of disbelief.

    For instance, we suspend our disbelief when we go to the movies, or read a novel, or hear an opera, or see a ballet, look at a painting or sculpture.

    So the defining feature of the suspension of disbelief is that it is voluntary and limited in time.

    And those who confuse illusion with reality are unable to limit it in time, and are unable to escape from their illusion.

    It is wise to remember that the work of children is play and the purpose of play is to learn to distinguish between the imagination and reality.

    So those who fail to distinguish between illusion and reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And we know how to determine which patterns are true and which patterns are false and it is called the scientific method.
    Even the scientific method runs into problems when we hit quantum probability...

  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You miss my point, Mole. Life is not so simple. Patterns are and are not at the same time. Perspective is a matter of choice.
    Alas dear Skylights, reality is not a matter of choice. Kick a rock and see.

    And indeed your statement that patterns are and are not at the same time is a violation of the principle of logic called, "The Excluded Middle".

    I do understand your belief that thing can be and not be at the same time makes you feel good, perhaps makes you feel in charge and powerful, but most of all makes you look good in the eyes of the New Age.

    But you belief is simply untrue and indeed violates the rules of logic.

  8. #18
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Even the scientific method runs into problems when we hit quantum probability...
    This false belief derives from the mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics.

    But no physicist on Earth has a mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics.

    The mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics tries to hijack the status of Quantum Mechanics for a false mystical belief.

    And this wheese is as old as the hills as Mary Baker Edy tried to hijack the status of science in the 19th century in creating her religion called, "Christian Science".

    And by the way, Quantum Mechanics is our most accurate scientific fact arrived at using the scientific method.

    So rather than Quantum Mechanics running into problems with the scientific method, Quantum Mechanics confirms the scientific method.

  9. #19
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    So those who fail to distinguish between illusion and reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.
    And those who fail to distinguish between black-and-white thinking and shades-of-gray reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.

    Categorizing someone as an "introvert" based on a self-assessment test with a large body of data in support of its reliability and validity is subject to greater error, and different forms of error, than many of the categorizations that are made in the "hard sciences." But if you think that categorizing someone as an introvert has the same scientific status as categorizing someone as a Capricorn, you're using a definition of "scientific" that fails to properly distinguish between the respectable branches of psychology, sociology, economics and the other so-called "soft sciences" and pseudosciences like astrology.

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Quantum Mechanics confirms the scientific method.
    I do not know that you can really confirm the scientific method. It is a method, not an answer.

    All I am saying... is that while I trust and encourage the scientific method... I do not think it is a panacea.

    And I do not think the MBTI used in moderation is evil. But I think that is where you and I will have to agree to disagree!

    Hope you have a good night, Mole.

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